Why did Toyota build Rav4 EV? Why hydrogen after 2014 ?

[Vach]

The only thing that might cause them to shift toward more EVs would be for the RAV4EV to sell out in a short time frame. and that does not appear to be happening.

The car is too expensive for this to happen, all EVs are. I've heard more than a dozen people tell me they'd buy my car if it was cheaper, and not like 15k cheap, like 30k (no rebate).

I guess that's the problem though, if EVs were as cheap as gas cars more of them would be on the road.

 

[AvLegends]

The only thing that might cause them to shift toward more EVs would be for the RAV4EV to sell out in a short time frame. and that does not appear to be happening.

The car is too expensive for this to happen, all EVs are. I've heard more than a dozen people tell me they'd buy my car if it was cheaper, and not like 15k cheap, like 30k (no rebate).

I guess that's the problem though, if EVs were as cheap as gas cars more of them would be on the road.

Yeah... I really think they would sell more if they would advertise the damn things! :roll:

As Tony said, Elon Musk even offered to sell the Tesla drive train to Toyota at a lesser price so the vehicle could be sold for less and Toyota said NO! Toyota clearly believes "EV bad... Hybrid good"!

 

[TonyWilliams]

Keep in mind, also, that it wouldn't be wise to sell too many, too fast, and THEN go to the EPA to try and stop the CARB-ZEV mandate (which they did through their manufacturer's association).

Heck, they still haven't updated the website on specials after June 3. Why advertise? Pretend like it doesn't exist and then say' "See, nobody wants EV's".

 

[AvLegends]

Why advertise? Pretend like it doesn't exist and then say' "See, nobody wants EV's".

Yes... too bad, but yes! They must know something that we don't. They didn't get to be the worlds biggest automaker by making stupid decisions!

I guess I just don't get it! Probably never will! Oh well...

 

[camiev]

Does anyone know how many EV GM need to produce to meet CARB requirements?
Like Toyota has to produce 2600 RAV4 EV. How many Spark EV does GM need to produce? For how many years? Thanks

 

[TonyWilliams]

Does anyone know how many EV GM need to produce to meet CARB requirements?
Like Toyota has to produce 2600 RAV4 EV. How many Spark EV does GM need to produce? For how many years? Thanks

Both GM and Toyota are "Very Large Manufacturers", and are somewhat equal in oil burning car sales in California, so I expect a similar number of ZEV's. Toyota has an advantage with it's Prius volume, versus Volt (they all factor in).

Phase III of CARB ZEV compliance is 2012 - 2014 model years. In Phase IV, model years 2015 - 2017, other manufacturers will be joining the party, like Daimler (Mercedes) and BMW.

 

[Vach]

Yes... too bad, but yes! They must know something that we don't. They didn't get to be the worlds biggest automaker by making stupid decisions!

This is my thinking as well; especially with all that EV concept car fluff that I've seen on some of their cars (like the Fun-Vii... hopefully I'm 'spelling' that right). They must have plans they simply don't want to share.

My theory, is that they are going to wait to release a "mainstream" EV vehicle when battery technology is better and cheaper, like Li-Air or those Calcium batteries I read about. This way, they can make it seem like their starting vehicles are better than everyone else's or "more advanced."

 

[sobayimage]

I am mystified by Toyota. They have an all electric car in their showrooms now, the RAV4 EV, priced at $50,000. Today Toyota announced they are producing another electrically driven car for 2015, priced at $50,000. This time it comes with a refinery onboard to produce the electricity from a hydrogen fuel cell. I think Toyota will do the same thing with the fuel cell electric car as they have done with the RAV4 EV. Toyota will keep it a secret. There are 38 million people in California with millions of electrical outlets, about 13,500 gasoline stations and 9 hydrogen fueling stations available to them. This tells me electricity is the most readily available energy in California. Toyota is not serious about selling any electric car, fuel cell or battery powered, it’s just public relations. Producing a few electric cars is a means of staying within the California requirements to allow manufacturers to continue producing gasoline engine cars. Toyota will signal they are serious about selling electric cars when the time comes that after you have decided on which Toyota you want, the salesperson then asks you which version you want, electric or gasoline.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Please read through this thread to answer your questions. You'll note I predicted exactly a Toyota hydrogen car for 2015.

 

[amped up]

For what it's worth, Toyota posted a press release sharing they will be showing off their fuel cell vehicle at the Aspen Ideas Festival. Between the way they executed the Prius Plug-in effort, and the RAV4 EV effort, sure feels like Toyota isn't going to focus on electric for a while (at best, they'll 'plugify' the next gen Prius).

I guess I can only hope I can get my hands on a RAV4 EV before they are gone.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Here is the discussion about the Toyota hydrogen car

 

[TonyWilliams]

Koei Saga, senior managing officer in charge of Toyota’s drivetrain research and development, spoke with Automotive News at length. The general topic was future powertrains from Toyota.

As Automotive News explains:

"Saga is not a big proponent of electric vehicles. He said Toyota — or any large-scale automaker for that matter — would not have developed the RAV4 EV if it weren’t forced to comply with California Air Resources Board regulations.”

http://insideevs.com/toyotas-drivetrain-boss-says-tesla-motors-business-plan-seems-doubtful/#comment-182741

Those weren’t Saga’s words, but these are. Saga stated that Tesla’s business plan seems doubtful “when sales are based on targeting rich users for whom this is their third or fourth car.”

 

[user 340]

I just don't get the new Toyota FCV (or FCVs in general). Toyota hates BEVs, so they will do a FCV next. Fuel cell technology is not nearly as developed (or inexpensive) as BEV technology, and there is zero FCV infrastructure in place. OK, if you can stomach that, it seems that the real kicker is that FCVs need big batteries because the fuel cell produces power at a constant but not high rate. Therefore you need to store a good bit of the electrical energy (produced by the fuel cell) in a big battery to get up long mountain passes etc. How big? The battery for the Toyota FCV is 21 kWh - half the capacity of the RAV4 EV and nearly as big as the capacity of the Leaf!

So not only does the Toyota FCV need advances in new technology for which there is no infrastructure, it also needs a fairly giant battery (much closer to a RAV4 EV than a PIP on a log scale). Wouldn't it be much easier to just ditch the fuel cell and put in a charger plus a somewhat bigger battery?

 

[oldman]

I am guessing fuel cell vehicles make sense for keeping service stations alive and vibrant to service gas and hydrogen powered cars, for requiring more maintenance at Toyota dealers, and for getting people to drive longer distances. After all the bottom line for corporations is profit, not necessarily benefitting the consumer or the environment. I'll stick with my EV, charge it up at home or at free charging stations, and let the others keep service stations alive, and keep Toyota service centers profitable. I guess Toyota really wants to get rid of the EVs now. Bought my new RAV4 EV for $38,000. Now to get my tax credits.

 

[Ampster]

I am guessing fuel cell vehicles make sense for keeping service stations alive and vibrant to service gas and hydrogen powered cars, for requiring more maintenance at Toyota dealers, and for getting people to drive longer distances. After all the bottom line for corporations is profit, not necessarily benefitting the consumer or the environment. I'll stick with my EV, charge it up at home or at free charging stations, and let the others keep service stations alive, and keep Toyota service centers profitable. I guess Toyota really wants to get rid of the EVs now. Bought my new RAV4 EV for $38,000. Now to get my tax credits.

Yes, I think you are right about that. In addition, I think Hydrogen takes a lot of energy to make and I think it is made from Hydrocarbons. Follow the money.

 

[bruin nut]

I am guessing fuel cell vehicles make sense for keeping service stations alive and vibrant to service gas and hydrogen powered cars, for requiring more maintenance at Toyota dealers, and for getting people to drive longer distances. After all the bottom line for corporations is profit, not necessarily benefitting the consumer or the environment. I'll stick with my EV, charge it up at home or at free charging stations, and let the others keep service stations alive, and keep Toyota service centers profitable. I guess Toyota really wants to get rid of the EVs now. Bought my new RAV4 EV for $38,000. Now to get my tax credits.

Where did you get such a good deal? Thats 12k below MSRP.

 

[doug401]

I am guessing fuel cell vehicles make sense for keeping service stations alive and vibrant to service gas and hydrogen powered cars, for requiring more maintenance at Toyota dealers, and for getting people to drive longer distances. After all the bottom line for corporations is profit, not necessarily benefitting the consumer or the environment. I'll stick with my EV, charge it up at home or at free charging stations, and let the others keep service stations alive, and keep Toyota service centers profitable. I guess Toyota really wants to get rid of the EVs now. Bought my new RAV4 EV for $38,000. Now to get my tax credits.

Where did you get such a good deal? Thats 12k below MSRP.

There was a short time period when Toyota offered $10,000 off MSRP, and a small dealer discount, and zero interest loan. Then zero taxes for myself in Wa. And of course the fed tax credit.
Deal of the century. I was blown away when I heard about it. Jumped in fast. The offer only lasted a month or 2. If I see that deal again, I may have to buy a second.

 

[ufojoe]

I am guessing fuel cell vehicles make sense for keeping service stations alive and vibrant to service gas and hydrogen powered cars, for requiring more maintenance at Toyota dealers, and for getting people to drive longer distances. After all the bottom line for corporations is profit, not necessarily benefitting the consumer or the environment. I'll stick with my EV, charge it up at home or at free charging stations, and let the others keep service stations alive, and keep Toyota service centers profitable. I guess Toyota really wants to get rid of the EVs now. Bought my new RAV4 EV for $38,000. Now to get my tax credits.

Where did you get such a good deal? Thats 12k below MSRP.

There was a short time period when Toyota offered $10,000 off MSRP, and a small dealer discount, and zero interest loan. Then zero taxes for myself in Wa. And of course the fed tax credit.
Deal of the century. I was blown away when I heard about it. Jumped in fast. The offer only lasted a month or 2. If I see that deal again, I may have to buy a second.

I received the same exact deal, then got my $2500 from the State, and now will receive $7500 Federal Tax Credit this year....No brainer!!

 

[reeler]

I bought a used 2012 with 4k miles for $29k. Colorado has a $6k rebate on top of that.

 

[ekcanzano]

I am so disappointed that Toyota has not embraced BEVs they way they set the standard for hybrids. I love my RAV4EV! It is the vehicle that has brought pure joy back to driving. And all without any guilt about polluting the atmosphere. The additional benefit of reducing our dependance on oil (foreign or domestic) is a great one, too.

I think the plan to produce fuel cell vehicles is truly bizarre. Yes, I know Toyota will get great CARB credits for producing the FCVs, but the lack of H2 infrastructure is the heavy (if not impossible) lift. I have had the pleasure of driving a CNG Honda Civic since 2005 at work. Because we have our own fueling stations, refueling is not normally a problem with the 150 mile range. However, on occasions where I must fuel at a facility other than our own--what a NIGHTMARE. Sure, you can find CNG stations with a laptop, but then you get there and they are broken or closed or locked or nonexistent or selling CNG at much higher $$$ than advertised. The CNG stations are few and far between. Very range anxiety producing moments! Applying my personal experience driving a CNG to what a FCV owner will be forced to deal with is, to me, going to be a total nightmare. I hope I am wrong, but Toyota--I just don't get it.

People are overly obsessed with BEV range anxiety. Range anxiety is real, but with a 100+ mile range, and electricity in every home/garage/business, reasonable planning is not too hard. I will admit being a multi car family has a huge advantage when I really do need the range of a traditionally fueled vehicle. But it is very rare that my RAV4EV will not fulfill my range needs.

Having solar photovoltaic and an EV is the greatest! Before getting my EV, I was overproducing 3MWHs of electricity per year. My electric utility was paying me approximately $100 for my overproduction per year. That 3MWHs will propel my RAV4EV for 8K-10K miles! Try that with an FCV.

I see electric cars becoming serious mainstream vehicles in the near future. I am glad we have a jump on things. I will keep on smiling while enjoying the exhilaration of driving my RAV4EV in SPORT MODE daily.