Charging: Stopped by System Malfunction

[Improve_RAV4EV]

Well.. finally my EV threw out the death message.

I bought this used 2012 RAV4 EV in July 2020, with no warranty left.

Last week, back from work, connected it to 240V to charge it during the night, as usual. Charge time showed 03:17.
Next morning, I found it not charged, with error msg on dash: "Stopped by System Malfunction".

I did an intensive research and thought that the problem would be a blown fuse in the OBC.
With a lot of hard work, I took the OBC out, only to find both fuses OK !

Since the OBC is out, is there a way to check if it is good or bad?

I have most of the tools, like Multimeter and Oscilloscope.
I also have an orange OBD-II and a blue wireless OBD-II tools.

Too late, but I realize that I should've gotten a diagnostics first. How about if I loosely put everything back by just making the necessary connections and try to diagnose it?

Observations:
- When I connect the 240V, it starts charging for about 5 seconds and then gives the error.
- I tried to flash the system by removing the 12V Battery, by turning it ON & OFF 4-5 times, but none worked. The car wouldn't charge or move; only allowed to go on Neutral.
- DC/DC Conv.should be fine, because the 12V Battery was full. However, I did not do any measurements.
- When turned ON, I hear the loud click of the Contactors.

Any recommendations would be highly appreciated.
Thanx

 

[hokiematt]

I had this same issue a few months ago: my RAV failed to charge with all other systems being ok. 90% of the time, it is one of the internal fuses that has blown. However, just like you, the fuses in my charger ended up testing fine.

Rather than try to track down the defective component in my charger, I just grabbed one of the spare gen 1 Tesla chargers I had on hand, swapped the control board out of the RAV OBC over to the Tesla OBC, re-installed and all is good.

My recommendation for you: grab a gen 1 Tesla charger from eBay or your favorite auto parts recycler, and either re-flash the unit to be RAV-compatible via the TPD software, or (simpler) move over the control board from your current RAB OBC. Alternatively, I have a few tested gen 1 OBCs that I can sell/ship you one that's been re-flashed; PM for more info.

 

[Improve_RAV4EV]

I had this same issue a few months ago: my RAV failed to charge with all other systems being ok. 90% of the time, it is one of the internal fuses that has blown. However, just like you, the fuses in my charger ended up testing fine.

Rather than try to track down the defective component in my charger, I just grabbed one of the spare gen 1 Tesla chargers I had on hand, swapped the control board out of the RAV OBC over to the Tesla OBC, re-installed and all is good.

My recommendation for you: grab a gen 1 Tesla charger from eBay or your favorite auto parts recycler, and either re-flash the unit to be RAV-compatible via the TPD software, or (simpler) move over the control board from your current RAB OBC. Alternatively, I have a few tested gen 1 OBCs that I can sell/ship you one that's been re-flashed; PM for more info.

Thanks for the info/offer.

But first, how can I make sure that it is the OBC?

Second, would a classic OBD-II (or, blue wireseless) do the flush/test, in case I need to?

I'm attaching the only serial/version info in the back and the sticker on top of my OBC:

 

[alflash]

A completely trivial situation.
Before starting repairs, you need to make diagnostics!
Determining the cause of a charging failure is easy after collecting and analyzing current/contextual data from the Tesla system in charging mode.
There are dozens of threads on this forum that confirm this method...

 

[asavage]

I had this same issue a few months ago: my RAV failed to charge with all other systems being ok.

It would not charge, but would it drive?

- When I connect the 240V, it starts charging for about 5 seconds and then gives the error.
- [ . . . ] The car wouldn't charge or move; only allowed to go on Neutral.

If the inverter won't energize, this implies something other than the OBC, doesn't it?

OP, nobody I know of has publicly published any data on what fails in the OBC other than the AC Input fuses, and you can't use TPD without pretty much everything being connected. I think your choices are to put it all back together enough to run TPD, or fire the parts cannon at it and replace the OBC, and then put it all back together on the hope/chance that the OBC was the total problem (ie spend money on a replacement OBC in the hopes of not having to remove it again).

If you hadn't mentioned "no drive" then -- if it was me -- I'd go with Matt's offer, and replace the OBC. But what I'm hearing is the HV contactors close but no Drive. I can't tell from here if the HV contactors closed and then immediately opened, which is common, and you can't always tell by the sound they make; they are pretty quiet when opening. TPD can tell you the HV Contactors' state (Open or Closed).

A common scenario that fits your description is a wet LDU (rotor seal leak) causing loss of stator windings HV isolation resistance. Upon startup, the BMS allows a HV contactor to close, then checks the HV system for HV isolation, and if it's below a safety threshold, it reopens the HV contactor and asks the Toyota side to display the error message.

There are variations on this theme, but they don't have the OBC involved.

Have you removed the LDU's speed sensor and checked for the Blue Drops of Death?

 

[Improve_RAV4EV]

I had this same issue a few months ago: my RAV failed to charge with all other systems being ok. 90% of the time, it is one of the internal fuses that has blown. However, just like you, the fuses in my charger ended up testing fine.

Rather than try to track down the defective component in my charger, I just grabbed one of the spare gen 1 Tesla chargers I had on hand, swapped the control board out of the RAV OBC over to the Tesla OBC, re-installed and all is good.

My recommendation for you: grab a gen 1 Tesla charger from eBay or your favorite auto parts recycler, and either re-flash the unit to be RAV-compatible via the TPD software, or (simpler) move over the control board from your current RAB OBC. Alternatively, I have a few tested gen 1 OBCs that I can sell/ship you one that's been re-flashed; PM for more info.

Is this the Control Board? (Photo courtesy of asavage)

 

[hokiematt]

@asavage , thanks for pointing out what I clearly missed/didn't read far enough: if the vehicle is stuck in neutral, there is likely something else going on. I temporarily rescind my advice regarding the OBC.

@Improve_RAV4EV : with your foot on the brake when you turn the ignition on, do you get READY displayed (constant) on the instrument cluster? Or does it flash and then go away? Does the vehicle automatically shift itself to neutral, or does it do it in response to something, like you trying to place the sifter in Drive or Reverse?

Asssuming you do get a solid READY, what is the voltage at the 12V battery? The DC-DC will be active in READY mode, and you should see roughly 14.5V.

As @alflash correctly notes, rather than randomly replacing parts hoping to fall into a solution, it's more prudent to make informed diagnostics. Grabbing the TPD software and buying a cable from Al would be a good start.

 

[Improve_RAV4EV]

It would not charge, but would it drive?



If the inverter won't energize, this implies something other than the OBC, doesn't it?

OP, nobody I know of has publicly published any data on what fails in the OBC other than the AC Input fuses, and you can't use TPD without pretty much everything being connected. I think your choices are to put it all back together enough to run TPD, or fire the parts cannon at it and replace the OBC, and then put it all back together on the hope/chance that the OBC was the total problem (ie spend money on a replacement OBC in the hopes of not having to remove it again).

If you hadn't mentioned "no drive" then -- if it was me -- I'd go with Matt's offer, and replace the OBC. But what I'm hearing is the HV contactors close but no Drive. I can't tell from here if the HV contactors closed and then immediately opened, which is common, and you can't always tell by the sound they make; they are pretty quiet when opening.

A common scenario that fits your description is a wet LDU (rotor seal leak) causing loss of stator windings HV isolation resistance. Upon startup, the BMS allows a HV contactor to close, then checks the HV system for HV isolation, and if it's below a safety threshold, it reopens the HV contactor and asks the Toyota side to display the error message.

There are variations on this theme, but they don't have the OBC involved.

Have you removed the LDU's speed sensor and checked for the Blue Drops of Death?

Thanks for the valuable info.

When I purchased the vehicle 5 years ago, all coolant levels were just slightly down. I topped them up and since then they went down again just a little.
If there was a leak, wouldn't the coolant go empty in 5 years?

Anyway, I just took it out (without straitening/removing the frozen wheel. Was easy after working in tight spaces of OBC).
It is the driest one I've seen in this environment! (See pic).

What would be the next?
Eliminating the possibilities one by one, I hope it does not come down to the Contactors!?!
As you said, I think I better put the OBC & DC/DC back loosely and run a test.

This happened midnight, between 12:01am - 6:00am, when the scheduled charging started.
Would a surge in the grid, in the middle of charging, cause this? Could it be just a matter of resetting the software? I tried removing the 12V Battery, turning ON & OFF 4 times. None helped. One thing I forgot was to put the orange HV connector back and see if that'd clear the message.

Last year, one morning, when I started it, it popped up "Go to the dealer" message. I removed the 12V battery waited couple of hours, put it back, and everything was back to normal.

BTW, how can I unlock the steering wheel & the parking brake? I couldn't find anything by searching. A link would be appreciated.

 

[hokiematt]

Statistically speaking, a failed contactor is your most likely culprit (assuming they've never been replaced). It would also explain both your failure to charge and inability to drive.

There is an electrical interlock system that will prevent the contactors from closing if there's a break in the loop, so you will need to plug back in both the DC-DC assembly (all connectors, plus the clear plastic cover over the HV input terminals) as well as the OBC. For now you can just do the black low voltage connector on the OBC driver's side, and skip the AC and HV connections until later (but do make sure the white jumper connection at that end of the charger is still installed).

To confirm the interlock is good, the TPD software is the simplest check. See this thread: https://www.myrav4ev.com/threads/tpd-diagnostic-cables-pre-assembled.2601/ to buy a cable from Al, and scroll to post #20 for software installation instructions. TPD will also hopefully show any relevant error codes. <<-- This is really the next/main step you should be taking; without data, we're just speculating...

The steering column should unlock when the ignition is turned on (foot on the brake for ignition; otherwise pressing the start button only turns on accessory mode). The parking pawl should disengage with ignition on and by pressing the 'P' button. If you're having issues with either of these, your 12V battery is probably too low; check voltage and charge as needed.

 

[asavage]

Yeah, possibly a HV contactor issue. This would very likely be accurately diagnosed via TPD, but is really difficult to track down without. I mean, if you have the means you can read the CAN stream directly and try to find a relevant DBC file for our car, but honestly TPD is much easier to set up, even if it lies to you about some things.

---

I'll add that if the steering wheel won't unlock, IME that's been because the various antennas are not reading the key . . . but I've always see "Key not detected" on the right side of the IC, where all the other messages are displayed, and if you have multiple messages scrolling (Check EV System, Door Ajar, etc.), it might not be the first thing you see.

I usually place the key in the cupholder when I'm working on mine. Occasionally, I've had to hold it closer to the Start button, but that's rare. A paired key does have to be inside the passenger compartment to work, and the various antennas are situated to ensure that you can't say have the key in your pocket and from standing outside the car, reach in and obtain Ready.

If you haven't changed out the CR1632 battery in the last couple of years, maybe pick up a couple (one for your spare key) and put that on your To-Do list. I have found that a low FOB battery will still activate the PDLs but not the Security system reliably.

CR1632 is not stocked everywhere (though I was pleased to see ONE in stock at an O'Reilly's today, for $10 w/tax).

 

[asavage]

If there was a leak, wouldn't the coolant go empty in 5 years?

A tablespoon of blue coolant will mess up a stator (etc.) and three tablespoons' worth will kill the inverter, but won't hardly show on the reservoir at all.

However, as your sensor is dry, you have a reprieve on the rotor seal (for now: they always fail).

 

[Improve_RAV4EV]

Statistically speaking, a failed contactor is your most likely culprit (assuming they've never been replaced). It would also explain both your failure to charge and inability to drive.

There is an electrical interlock system that will prevent the contactors from closing if there's a break in the loop, so you will need to plug back in both the DC-DC assembly (all connectors, plus the clear plastic cover over the HV input terminals) as well as the OBC. For now you can just do the black low voltage connector on the OBC driver's side, and skip the AC and HV connections until later (but do make sure the white jumper connection at that end of the charger is still installed).

To confirm the interlock is good, the TPD software is the simplest check. See this thread: https://www.myrav4ev.com/threads/tpd-diagnostic-cables-pre-assembled.2601/ to buy a cable from Al, and scroll to post #20 for software installation instructions. TPD will also hopefully show any relevant error codes. <<-- This is really the next/main step you should be taking; without data, we're just speculating...

The steering column should unlock when the ignition is turned on (foot on the brake for ignition; otherwise pressing the start button only turns on accessory mode). The parking pawl should disengage with ignition on and by pressing the 'P' button. If you're having issues with either of these, your 12V battery is probably too low; check voltage and charge as needed.

More I read, more I become convinced that it is the contactors, because the car has 122,000 miles (I should have told that at the beginning). If originals, they could be cooked by now.

- I am loosely connecting back the OBC (minus HV & AC) and the DC/DC,
- I am making the TPD connector (already have parts),
- Downloaded 1.46 from asavage, thank you (will install it after connecting the cable).

Other issues/details/questions:
- Bosh Platinum blue 12V battery has date: 10/2019. I fully charge it after each test (HV disconnected, it quickly sucks energy and goes down to 12.20V). Fully charged it is 12.68V.
- CR1632 in remote is new.
- Since both HV and 12V are disconnected, I cannot move the car. Therefore, I was asking if there's a way to release the steering lock and the parking brake manually.
- With OBC & DC/DC removed, I connected the 12V back, hoping that'd release the brake. But it beeped when I pushed the P or hit the yoke to the left (N), refusing to release it. Moreover, new error messages started popping up! (Would they require a reset/SW flash to clear?).
- Is it enough to just connect OBC without HV & AC, and DC/DC to be able to run all the TPD tests (interlock, contactors, OBC, DC/DC, etc)?
- Is it possible to lock/unlock the door in the back manually (without battery)?
- If contactors needed replacement, which brand & model should I get? Should I get the one w/economizer?

Thanks

 

[asavage]

I can't answer some of your questions, because they're in the "it's never been" done department, at least in a publicly documented way.

Mechanically, the park motor can be removed from the driver's side of the LDU reasonably easily, and then you can use a socket (8mm?) to un-lock the internal park mechanism. The steering, however, IDK. If you need to move the car to a location where you can R&R the HV battery, you're probably going to have to do it with dollies (HF has them cheap), or reassemble a lot of what you took apart already, or have it towed if the location is remote.

To reset one or more of the new messages created by powering up 12v with things disconnected, you may (or may not) need Techstream + a J2534 ("mini-vci") dongle, at the front DLC (OBDII) connector. At least, I did a couple of days ago, after having the HV battery out for HV contactors replacement and the 12v battery disconnected for essentially six months; I had several ABS errors for no readily apparent reason, and they would not clear by non-Techstream methods. Techstream (slowly) allowed me to clear the five or six brake system DTCs, and that was that. Doing DIY on a modern Toyota means you will need TechStream eventually anyway, and it also lets you set configurable options like the beep when shifting to Reverse, or disabling the beeper when you lock/unlock the PDLs. Handy. Software is free, dongle is (was) cheap; I bought mine via Amazon years ago.

You cannot use economized contactors. I used GigaVac GV200s (see two posts down from above link for actual part nos.). If you install economized contactors, I would put money on them chattering at best. The BMS does its own economizing via PWM.

If you're planning to R&R the HV contactors yourself, please at least read through my thread above, as there are things you can learn in advance and prepare for. Esp. the M12 guide pins to reinstallation. I believe Konduit EV will do the job for ~$2200-2400 IIRC, and . . . that's not an unreasonable price, esp. since he's in your area.

The glued-down covers (penthouse and main lid) are a serious PITA to remove all the old mastic. You will get the stuff everywhere. The paint was apparently applied without primer or a serious metal etch prep, so I had moderate corrosion and paint bubbling, and these things are only 11-14 years old, so you might have to do some paint remediation on the main cover.

A flat area to R&R the pack is highly recommended. I don't have a flat driveway, so I borrowed one that's 30 mi. east . . . for the winter

And all this is in addition to the dehumidifier air pump, which is easy to replace when you have the HV battery down, but expensive, and took me a month to acquire; I am told the two shops doing repairs on RAV4 EVs are replacing failed ones with JY parts. Per the mfgr, their service life is only ~3000 hours, so they're all going to be aged out soon (my blue car has 123k miles; I purchased at 49k).

 

[hokiematt]

The parking motor is a 12v system driving a brushless motor; with the ignition on and the brake pedal depressed, moving the shifter to N should disengage the parking pawl. The steering column lock is also a 12v motor, and should unlock the column when the ignition is turned on (I can't find documentation if the brake pedal needs to be depressed or not).

I don't believe there is a manual lock for the rear hatch; reconnect the 12v battery and use the driver's door lock/unlock switch.

Yes, I believe that re-attaching the DC-DC connectors, and the OBC with the black low voltage connector, should be sufficient to turn the car on and use TPD for diagnostics.

Has the service disconnect under the passenger seat ever been removed? There have been instance where if that plug is re-installed improperly, it can become loose and break connection, which could also cause the issues you're experiencing.

Do not use contactors with built-in economizer circuits.

 

[asavage]

Has the service disconnect under the passenger seat ever been removed? There have been instance where if that plug is re-installed improperly, it can become loose and break connection, which could also cause the issues you're experiencing.

https://www.myrav4ev.com/threads/ok-to-drive-with-bms_f038-code.2668/post-32600

 

[Improve_RAV4EV]

The parking motor is a 12v system driving a brushless motor; with the ignition on and the brake pedal depressed, moving the shifter to N should disengage the parking pawl. The steering column lock is also a 12v motor, and should unlock the column when the ignition is turned on (I can't find documentation if the brake pedal needs to be depressed or not).

I don't believe there is a manual lock for the rear hatch; reconnect the 12v battery and use the driver's door lock/unlock switch.

Yes, I believe that re-attaching the DC-DC connectors, and the OBC with the black low voltage connector, should be sufficient to turn the car on and use TPD for diagnostics.

Has the service disconnect under the passenger seat ever been removed? There have been instance where if that plug is re-installed improperly, it can become loose and break connection, which could also cause the issues you're experiencing.

Do not use contactors with built-in economizer circuits.

I've removed the 12V Battery, and then the orange HV connection plug under the passenger seat, the very 1st day, before I started removing:
1- JDeMo
2- DC/DC
3- OBC

After putting them back (except JDeMo), should I connect the orange HV plug back, in order to run the diagnostics? (Without connecting the HV & AC box on the left of OBC (only the white jumper connected)?)

 

[hokiematt]

Yes, the HV safety disconnect should be re-installed to run diagnostics. Per the link that Al provided above, note that the disconnect should be fully unlocked before it's pushed down firmly while re-installing.

You hadn't mentioned the Jdemo before. I would suggest unplugging the Jdemo low voltage harness and plugging the black factory connector directly into the OBC, just to rule out any issues that could be caused by Jdemo.

 

[Improve_RAV4EV]

Yes, the HV safety disconnect should be re-installed to run diagnostics. Per the link that Al provided above, note that the disconnect should be fully unlocked before it's pushed down firmly while re-installing.

You hadn't mentioned the Jdemo before. I would suggest unplugging the Jdemo low voltage harness and plugging the black factory connector directly into the OBC, just to rule out any issues that could be caused by Jdemo.

I'm aware of the orange plug's black handle's 90 degrees issue. I first was not able to do it. Then, while pulling the handle upward, I noticed that there's an orange lip that prevents it moving further. I pushed the lip with my finger and the handle finally moved upright.

Thanks for reminding to remove the JDeMo cable splitter. (I only used JDeMo once and it worked fine).

Now, I'll need couple of days because of unforeseen events. I'll be back with results.

 

[Improve_RAV4EV]

Yes, the HV safety disconnect should be re-installed to run diagnostics.

How about the coolant lines, should I connect them or not (OBC, DC/DC) ?

 

[hokiematt]

How about the coolant lines, should I connect them or not (OBC, DC/DC) ?

It's up to you. The pumps will want to turn on, so you would either need to block the ports of all open lines, or re-connect them to the OBC and DC-DC. I'd vote for the latter.