Extended Charge function decrease after recall software

[travelRav4]

Hello,
Has anyone experienced a decrease in the their extended charge function after the recall software update? When the battery is full, I can now only charge for an additional 40 minutes when I use the extended charge function. In the past, it was more like an additional two hours. Thanks.

 

[fromport]

Hello,
Has anyone experienced a decrease in the their extended charge function after the recall software update? When the battery is full, I can now only charge for an additional 40 minutes when I use the extended charge function. In the past, it was more like an additional two hours. Thanks.

same ambient temperatures ?
same amount of amps ?
How many miles on your rav ?
Have you done the "tony test" to see how much your battery has lost compared to new ?

Afaik the tesla charger will not charge it to eg 80% of what ever capacity is left of the battery but gradually fills it further to kind of have the same amount of range on a standard charge. So the normal charge might already be eg 85% and the full charge tapers down fast.

 

[travelRav4]

same ambient temperatures ?
same amount of amps ?
How many miles on your rav ?
Have you done the "tony test" to see how much your battery has lost compared to new ?

Afaik the tesla charger will not charge it to eg 80% of what ever capacity is left of the battery but gradually fills it further to kind of have the same amount of range on a standard charge. So the normal charge might already be eg 85% and the full charge tapers down fast.[/quote]

Yes, the charging conditions are the same. My regular charge gets me about 107 miles in range and that has not changed. But with the extended charge, the range can usually go up to around 136 miles. Now after the software update, the extended charge will only get me up to around 113 miles in range. The EV tech at the dealership says it's due to the software upgrade, but I was wondering if that is true and if anyone else had the same experience.

 

[travelRav4]

What is the "tony test" for battery? Thanks.

 

[fromport]

What is the "tony test" for battery? Thanks.

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=20518#p20518

 

[travelRav4]

What is the "tony test" for battery? Thanks.

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=20518#p20518

Thank you. I will try that.
Although I feel that this is probably not an issue with battery degradation, since the change happened right after the software update (unless they somehow damaged part of the battery during the process).

 

[TonyWilliams]

First, do the test that was referenced above.

Then, please understand that all RAV4 EV's will experience battery degradation. Toyota has programmed the GOM to hide half of that degradation, so that over time, the extended range portion will become less and less.

Quite simply, if you have battery degradation, you will have less available extended range, and ultimately less range overall.

 

[travelRav4]

First, do the test that was referenced above.

Then, please understand that all RAV4 EV's will experience battery degradation. Toyota has programmed the GOM to hide half of that degradation, so that over time, the extended range portion will become less and less.

Quite simply, if you have battery degradation, you will have less available expanded range, and ultimately less range overall.

Thanks Tony. I will try the battery test soon, probably this weekend.
I've had my Rav4 for about a year, around 15k miles. It is just strange that the extended charge function works fine before the software update and changed right after the update. Can battery degrade that fast in a couple of days?
Also, it's not just the displayed range that changed, it is also the charge time. Prior to the update, when the battery is regularly charged, if I used the extended charge function, I can probably charge for another 1.5-2 hours. Now when I used the extended charge function, it will only let me charge for an additional 40 minutes.
The EV tech at my Toyota dealership said the software update is suppose to change the extended charge function. Is that true? Thanks.

 

[user 340]

There is a trick that you can use to monitor the standard vs. full (or "extended") state of charge that you can do if you have a JdeMO. If you charge with a JdeMO using a Nissan or other charger that shows state of charge, then keep your eye on when the charge gauge next to the GOM in the car indicates full (when the top bar is illuminated, indicating a complete standard charge). When this happens, look at the SOC level on the charger and also note the SOC on the charger when the charging is complete. The difference between the final SOC and the level at the top bar illumination will give you an idea of your extended charge headroom. FYI, my top bar comes on at 83% SOC and the charger shuts off at 97%. Changes in this difference may be more diagnostic than the absolute values.

 

[travelRav4]

There is a trick that you can use to monitor the standard vs. full (or "extended") state of charge that you can do if you have a JdeMO. If you charge with a JdeMO using a Nissan or other charger that shows state of charge, then keep your eye on when the charge gauge next to the GOM in the car indicates full (when the top bar is illuminated, indicating a complete standard charge). When this happens, look at the SOC level on the charger and also note the SOC on the charger when the charging is complete. The difference between the final SOC and the level at the top bar illumination will give you an idea of your extended charge headroom. FYI, my top bar comes on at 83% SOC and the charger shuts off at 97%. Changes in this difference may be more diagnostic than the absolute values.

Thank you for the advice. I will keep that in mind. Unfortunately I do not have a JdeMO.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The EV tech at my Toyota dealership said the software update is suppose to change the extended charge function. Is that true? Thanks.

Please click here for a thread about battery degradation:

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6829#p6829

When they disconnected the 12 V battery, all that stuff was reset. No software update has ever changed the actual extended range charging. In other words, it's still the same battery and it's still the same charger.

So, if you're basing this entire issue on some make-believe numbers from reset meters, then you're probably wasting your time with any tests.

What I'm referring to is genuine real battery degradation, not Guess O Meters, not estimated charge times, not any of the other hokey pokey Toyota stuff.

No, your battery did not degrade to any measurable amount in one or two days.

 

[TonyWilliams]

RAV4 degradation, Fuel Bars

A brand new RAV4 EV battery - loss of 5.1% SOC per fuel bar until 48.1% SOC

12% degraded car at 50,000 miles - Loss of 5.4% SOC per bar until 51% SOC, then 4.5% SOC with variations per fuel bar below 51%

******

35kWh / 41.8kWh = 83.83% of usable capacity when new for a full "normal charge".

Full "extended" charge - 96.5%- 98% SOC, 4112mv-4114mv per cell

******

When car is turned on to READY, voltages drop to 4100-4106 with A/C pump running.

Normal charge - 88.9% (12% degraded car), SOC 85% (new car)

FUEL BAR SEGMENTS @

--------12% degraded ---new battery

16 gone - 83.4% ------ 78.7%

15 gone - 78.0% ------ 73.6%

14 gone - 72.6% ------ 68.5%

13 gone - 67.2% ------ 63.4%

12 gone - 61.8% ------ 58.3%

11 gone - 56.4%------- 53.2%

10 gone - 51.0% ------ 49.1%

9 gone - 46.4% ------ 43.7%

8 gone - 41.9% ------- 39.5%

7 gone - 37.4% ------- 35.3%

6 gone - 32.9% ------- 31.1%

5 gone - 28.4% ------- 26.9%

4 gone - 23.9% ------ 22.5%

3 gone - 19.4% ------ 18.3% (Low Battery Warning)

2 gone - 13.9% ------- ----- (Very Low Battery)

Flashing gas can - 12.9%

LO - 8.4%

1 gone - 7% SOC (Climate Control Limited)

Turtle - 2.9%

 

[travelRav4]

The EV tech at my Toyota dealership said the software update is suppose to change the extended charge function. Is that true? Thanks.

Please click here for a thread about battery degradation:

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6829#p6829

When they disconnected the 12 V battery, all that stuff was reset. No software update has ever changed the actual extended range charging. In other words, it's still the same battery and it's still the same charger.

So, if you're basing this entire issue on some make-believe numbers from reset meters, then you're probably wasting your time with any tests.

What I'm referring to is genuine real battery degradation, not Guess O Meters, not estimated charge times, not any of the other hokey pokey Toyota stuff.

No, your battery did not degrade to any measurable amount in one or two days.

Thank you. Those posts are very informative.
I think the EV tech was not suggesting that that new software changed the battery but that it does not allow the extended charge to go from 80% to 100% as before; it is now limiting the extended charge to go from 80% to something like 85%.
It is strange that my charging time in extended charge has changed also. Before the update, after standard charge (around 80%), with the extended charge I can go for another 90-120 minutes. After the update, I can only charge for additional 40 minutes. It feel like I just suddenly lost 15% of the battery.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Thank you. Those posts are very informative.
I think the EV tech was not suggesting that that new software changed the battery but that it does not allow the extended charge to go from 80% to 100% as before; it is now limiting the extended charge to go from 80% to something like 85%.
It is strange that my charging time in extended charge has changed also. Before the update, after standard charge (around 80%), with the extended charge I can go for another 90-120 minutes. After the update, I can only charge for additional 40 minutes. It feel like I just suddenly lost 15% of the battery.

You're very welcome.

The dealer is wrong. You didn't just lose 15% of the battery.

With a BRAND NEW battery, the difference between a normal charge and extended charge was 41.8kWh - 35.0kWh = 6.8kWh.

That is not 90-120 minutes, unless you have a ridiculously low powered charge station. At 40 amps (9.6kW charge rate), that is less than an hour.

As the battery degrades, that time becomes less, because the battery is smaller in capacity, and the extended portion is reduced by half the total degradation.

So, a 10% degraded battery will reduce the "extended" portion by 5% of the total new battery size (5% of 41.8kWh = 2kWh less in extended of the 4kWh total loss of capacity).

Extended Range kWh

New battery --- 6.8kWh (less than 60 min charging at 40 amps)
10% degraded - 4.8kWh (less than 45 min charging at 40 amps)
20% degraded - 2.8kWh (less than 30 min charging at 40 amps)
30% degraded - nil

 

[travelRav4]

You're very welcome.

The dealer is wrong. You didn't just lose 15% of the battery.

With a BRAND NEW battery, the difference between a normal charge and extended charge was 41.8kWh - 35.0kWh = 6.8kWh.

That is not 90-120 minutes, unless you have a ridiculously low powered charge station. At 40 amps (9.6kW charge rate), that is less than an hour.

As the battery degrades, that time becomes less, because the battery is smaller in capacity, and the extended portion is reduced by half the total degradation.

So, a 10% degraded battery will reduce the "extended" portion by 5% of the total new battery size (5% of 41.8kWh = 2kWh less in extended of the 4kWh total loss of capacity).

Extended Range kWh

New battery --- 6.8kWh (less than 60 min charging at 40 amps)
10% degraded - 4.8kWh (less than 45 min charging at 40 amps)
20% degraded - 2.8kWh (less than 30 min charging at 40 amps)
30% degraded - nil

I have an EVLink Charger 30 amps (I think 7.2kW charge rate). Is that around 80 minutes of charging for a new battery? I had a Ford Focus EV prior to the Rav4, so it's an older charger. Thanks.

 

[mikegerard]

The Tony Test is the only way to know.

Using the GOM to estimate range is like using a funhouse mirror to see if you have gained 5 pounds...

The GOM is very conservative by design...especially once you turn on the heater it drops to extremely conservative values. I've had two trips recently that were 20+ miles with 30 degrees outside where I was able to average 3.0 kwh/mile and 2.8 kwh/mile. In both cases I beat the GOM by almost a factor of 2.
You would not want to GOM to say you are going to make it to your destination and then end up by the side of the road with no juice left.

 

[travelRav4]

The Tony Test is the only way to know.

Using the GOM to estimate range is like using a funhouse mirror to see if you have gained 5 pounds...

The GOM is very conservative by design...especially once you turn on the heater it drops to extremely conservative values. I've had two trips recently that were 20+ miles with 30 degrees outside where I was able to average 3.0 kwh/mile and 2.8 kwh/mile. In both cases I beat the GOM by almost a factor of 2.
You would not want to GOM to say you are going to make it to your destination and then end up by the side of the road with no juice left.

Thanks. Yes, I plan on performing the Tony Test soon. Will post the results.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Extended Range kWh and charging times from a full "Normal" charge

Assumes North America 240 volts. Add 15% more time for commercial 208 volts.

------------------------------ 40 amps -------- 30 amps

New battery --- 6.8kWh - less than 60 min ---- 80 min
10% degraded - 4.8kWh - less than 45 min --- 60 min
20% degraded - 2.8kWh - less than 30 min --- 40 min
30% degraded - nil

 

[travelRav4]

Extended Range kWh and charging times from a full "Normal" charge

Assumes North America 240 volts. Add 15% more time for commercial 208 volts.

------------------------------ 40 amps -------- 30 amps

New battery --- 6.8kWh - less than 60 min ---- 80 min
10% degraded - 4.8kWh - less than 45 min --- 60 min
20% degraded - 2.8kWh - less than 30 min --- 40 min
30% degraded - nil

Perfect. Thanks for the conversion.
So assuming that before the software update, the extended charge time was between 60-80 minutes, and now it's 40 minutes. I am wondering what could have caused the change in charging time.

 

[rayray]

Tony,
Do you know what the voltages equate to ?
I want to go the easy route, and plug in the techstream, and get the voltage numbers off the computer.