Hello Everyone, I am new to the forum and am so excited to see fellow Rav4 EVers here. I just purchased my car in Shoreline Blue a couple of days ago. I am excited but don't have a charger installed at home yet. I think I am going to get the Leviton 40a charger and am just getting started with the process. Can anyone share your experience with the installation process? How many weeks did it take to complete? Any LADWP customers out there? I have my on-site assessment appt this friday. I am concerned that we might need a panel upgrade and that it will cost a lot more than the base price. Do I need to have LADWP come out for an inspection of some sort before the Leviton installers show up? Any tips and/or advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
Charger installation process
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Dsinned
Well-known member
I'm so glad I had a short lived career in the Navy as an Electrician's Mate . . . Actually I served 26 years!
I ordered a Leviton "32A" charger from HOME DEPOT Online for about $1100 + tax, shipped free to my door. I did a "survey" on my own and found that I already had an unused 40A, 240Vac power source in my breaker box to an old 240Vac connection (hot tub in my backyard, recently disposed of after not being used for many years, i.e. a WHITE ELEPHANT). I had just enough existing wiring from that old connection point to reroute it in to my garage where I installed a Leviton 240V, 50A "pre-wiring" kit, which included an all weather NEMA outlet receptable of the same rating. This rerouting DID in fact require the services of a licensed Electrician, if for no other reason, I was afraid of scary looking spiders lurking in the crawl space under my house, where that old unused circut wiring had to be rerouted to my garage. :lol:
He installed the new outlet in the wall at same location I preselected for my new charging station, knowing in advance it would need to be within 25' of my RAV4 EV parked in front of the garage backed up in the driveway. From there, I can plug in the Leviton charger output cord's J1772 connector to the car with enough slack to avoid a tripping hazzard. Btw, Leviton sells essentially an identical model charging station for $100 less with a shorter 18' charge cord. This would not have reached, so I'm sure glad I was not "penny wise, pound foolish" and had the good sense to measure the distance, and wound up with a charging station I could actually USE!
Anyway, all said and done, the Electrician's services cost $375. There was no "permit" involved, because there was no significant electrical infrastructure changes to my house, and the Leviton charger is considered a "plug-in" device, even though it is now "quick-mounted" on a wall in my garage. The Electrician actually did most of the work - especially where the spider may lurk. I planned and supervised as "Project Engineer". :roll:
The net result was a very professional, fully functional, EVSE L2 240V, 32A (7.7kW) charging station that worked out perfectly. I can now fully recharge my RAV4 EV in about 7 hours MAX, even on an extended charge. This time duration was important, because I needed to schedule full charges between midnight and 7am when my electric service rate is at its absolute lowest cost per kWh, i.e. about 5 cents. :mrgreen:
The whole project took about 4 hours of actual work to complete and cost me about $1500 for everything. Toyota was never involved, nor did I have to go thru their new RAV4 EV customer, "authorized" Leviton pre-certification process, which probably would have cost a lot more!
I ordered a Leviton "32A" charger from HOME DEPOT Online for about $1100 + tax, shipped free to my door. I did a "survey" on my own and found that I already had an unused 40A, 240Vac power source in my breaker box to an old 240Vac connection (hot tub in my backyard, recently disposed of after not being used for many years, i.e. a WHITE ELEPHANT). I had just enough existing wiring from that old connection point to reroute it in to my garage where I installed a Leviton 240V, 50A "pre-wiring" kit, which included an all weather NEMA outlet receptable of the same rating. This rerouting DID in fact require the services of a licensed Electrician, if for no other reason, I was afraid of scary looking spiders lurking in the crawl space under my house, where that old unused circut wiring had to be rerouted to my garage. :lol:
He installed the new outlet in the wall at same location I preselected for my new charging station, knowing in advance it would need to be within 25' of my RAV4 EV parked in front of the garage backed up in the driveway. From there, I can plug in the Leviton charger output cord's J1772 connector to the car with enough slack to avoid a tripping hazzard. Btw, Leviton sells essentially an identical model charging station for $100 less with a shorter 18' charge cord. This would not have reached, so I'm sure glad I was not "penny wise, pound foolish" and had the good sense to measure the distance, and wound up with a charging station I could actually USE!
Anyway, all said and done, the Electrician's services cost $375. There was no "permit" involved, because there was no significant electrical infrastructure changes to my house, and the Leviton charger is considered a "plug-in" device, even though it is now "quick-mounted" on a wall in my garage. The Electrician actually did most of the work - especially where the spider may lurk. I planned and supervised as "Project Engineer". :roll:
The net result was a very professional, fully functional, EVSE L2 240V, 32A (7.7kW) charging station that worked out perfectly. I can now fully recharge my RAV4 EV in about 7 hours MAX, even on an extended charge. This time duration was important, because I needed to schedule full charges between midnight and 7am when my electric service rate is at its absolute lowest cost per kWh, i.e. about 5 cents. :mrgreen:
The whole project took about 4 hours of actual work to complete and cost me about $1500 for everything. Toyota was never involved, nor did I have to go thru their new RAV4 EV customer, "authorized" Leviton pre-certification process, which probably would have cost a lot more!
They will come out and determine what you'll need for installation. They'll give you a price and you tell them you want them to install. They will then get the permit from the city. After they get the permit they will install the station. Once installed a city inspector will inspect and sign the permit. After that you live happily ever after. Hopefully.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
brownie said:
Please open you main circuit breaker box and take a picture and post it here. Then tell us how far it is from that box to the proposed charging location. We'll keep Leviton honest.
I'm happy to report that my new Clipper Creek CS-50 parts came in the mail today. For about $300, I will have a really nice 40 amp unit and it will have the best 75 amp ITT cable and "nozzle" on the market. I got the unit for free as a castaway from the old BMW Mini-E electric car. Unfortunately, it was only a 30 amp unit, but it does have a 65 amp relay, so it was cost effective to upgrade to 40 amps. The new nozzle was needed because the Mini-E didn't use J1772. For only about $50 extra, I got a 25 foot long cord.
You're not in SDG&E territory, but for us, the super-off-peak time is 12 midnight to 5am, so I need to charge at 40 amps to fit (barely) in that window. 7.7 cents per kWh.
When the Leviton contractor came to my house, he checked my breaker box, planned installation site, and estimated a rough path for the wiring. He was there for about 30 minutes, making some drawings and notes to use for his plans as well as the permit. He came on a Thursday, I believe, and I got an email from Leviton on the following Monday allowing me to complete the purchase process. Within a day or two of me completing the purchase, I got contacted again by Leviton to schedule the actual installation, which was about a 5-7 business days from when they called/emailed me.
My situation allowed for the "standard" installation, so Leviton did not charge any additional fees. The contractor did charge me $200 for the $50 city permit for the installation. When I questioned Leviton, they contacted the contractor who said the additional fees were for permit plans prep and in-person submittal with the city. My guess is that the contractor was not receiving enough profit from Leviton and he felt he needed to pad his bottom line. Since I wasn't offered a choice of contractor, I had to pay this additional fee, which was frustrating.
In the end, my purchase price was about $1900, inclusive of sales tax and permit fees.
The installation crew was professional and completed their work in about 4 hours. I saw now quality issues or shortcuts taken by the installers, and the city inspector signed off on the work a few days later with no questions.
My situation allowed for the "standard" installation, so Leviton did not charge any additional fees. The contractor did charge me $200 for the $50 city permit for the installation. When I questioned Leviton, they contacted the contractor who said the additional fees were for permit plans prep and in-person submittal with the city. My guess is that the contractor was not receiving enough profit from Leviton and he felt he needed to pad his bottom line. Since I wasn't offered a choice of contractor, I had to pay this additional fee, which was frustrating.
In the end, my purchase price was about $1900, inclusive of sales tax and permit fees.
The installation crew was professional and completed their work in about 4 hours. I saw now quality issues or shortcuts taken by the installers, and the city inspector signed off on the work a few days later with no questions.
I've included a link to photos of my panels below I have the main box on the outside of the house which is not near the garage where we will have the charger installed. However, we do have a sub panel in the garage but it doesn't appear to have any open spots. That was my concern with needing some kind of panel upgrade. Or is it possible that they could re-wire an existing power outlet in the garage? There is one that exists that is right next to where we want to install the charger. Thanks Tony and Dsinned for sharing your experiences. You both sound like you really know what you're doing. I'm sure I could do this much better if I was up for the DIY route, but I just don't have the experience for that! Joyride, thanks for giving me your timeline. That really helps me gage things. My HOPE is to have everything done before Christmas. I'm curious, for Leviton, does the "standard" installation include routing the wires? I would think so, right? Also, were you able to use the charger as soon as it was installed? No need to wait for an inspector to buy off on it?
My next concern is with LADWP and how they fit into the process. I know they offer a rate discount if I have my charger on a second TOU meter. I wonder where that meter needs to be installed. Does it need to be next to our other whole-house TOU meter on the outside of the house which is far from our garage? And if that's the case, how will we wire from the garage all the way to that second meter? There's no obvious (to me- which doesn't say much) way to wire it from inside our garage to the opposite side of the house where the main panel and main TOU meter is installed. Also, what is their role in approving the whole installation process and who decides where that second TOU meter should be installed. I called their EV/incentives office and left a message and they claim they will call me back, but I have not heard back from them. I'll need to keep trying. So any info any LADWP customers have to share would be greatly appreciated.
photos of my breaker panels:
https://plus.google.com/photos/113178850548276957486/albums/5818884435557231185?authkey=CP-i3PW0jc7yZA
My next concern is with LADWP and how they fit into the process. I know they offer a rate discount if I have my charger on a second TOU meter. I wonder where that meter needs to be installed. Does it need to be next to our other whole-house TOU meter on the outside of the house which is far from our garage? And if that's the case, how will we wire from the garage all the way to that second meter? There's no obvious (to me- which doesn't say much) way to wire it from inside our garage to the opposite side of the house where the main panel and main TOU meter is installed. Also, what is their role in approving the whole installation process and who decides where that second TOU meter should be installed. I called their EV/incentives office and left a message and they claim they will call me back, but I have not heard back from them. I'll need to keep trying. So any info any LADWP customers have to share would be greatly appreciated.
photos of my breaker panels:
https://plus.google.com/photos/113178850548276957486/albums/5818884435557231185?authkey=CP-i3PW0jc7yZA
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
I would use #8 THHN for the 50 amp circuit breaker you will use. The max continuous load for permit application is 40 amps (80% of 50 amps). The box should use a NEMA 6-50R plugin receptacle, unless they "hardwire" it without a plug. That's all the hardware. Very simple.
Yes, you just pull the wires through. It's good old fashioned manual labor. If there are already wires, that should make it easier to pull through the new wires with the old ones. Or it can be a real pain... it just depends !!!
If these guys pull a "extra fees" game, remember you can buy a Clipper Creek CS-50 (made in California, USA, unlike Leviton unit) for about $2000. Rock solid, proven equipment. The cost for the electrical shouldn't be more than a few hundred bucks (unless there is something exceptionally weird).
Permit / homeowners associations... that's all you.
The additional meter for the Time Of Use (TOU) service will be done by the utility. They will put it wherever it is easy for their meter-readers. SDG&E didn't even charge me for this, and mine sits right next to the existing meter.
Yes, you just pull the wires through. It's good old fashioned manual labor. If there are already wires, that should make it easier to pull through the new wires with the old ones. Or it can be a real pain... it just depends !!!
If these guys pull a "extra fees" game, remember you can buy a Clipper Creek CS-50 (made in California, USA, unlike Leviton unit) for about $2000. Rock solid, proven equipment. The cost for the electrical shouldn't be more than a few hundred bucks (unless there is something exceptionally weird).
Permit / homeowners associations... that's all you.
The additional meter for the Time Of Use (TOU) service will be done by the utility. They will put it wherever it is easy for their meter-readers. SDG&E didn't even charge me for this, and mine sits right next to the existing meter.
Hm. I'm confronted with too many options now! I think I really want the faster charge, so I may stick with the Leviton 40a. However, the Clipper Creek does sound like better hardware. It looks like the CS-50 is a unit that is free-standing? Is there a wall installation option? I'm trying to keep an open mind about what brand to go with, but the cost is a big factor for me. I don't know if I can pay $2k even if it's better hardware. I did find a company called EVconnect that apparently sells clipper creek chargers and will also handle the installation and possibly permits. I'm going to try to get more info on that.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
brownie said:
Faster than what? The Clipper Creek and Leviton both have 40amp models, which will be the EXACT same speed.
It mounts with four simple bolts on a wall, or post. You don't need somebody who "does" car chargers. Any marginally competent electrician can get the power to the unit, and mount it. There's nothing to program or know. It just plugs in (or is hardwired) and works. That's it. To the electrician, it's an electric appliance like a clothes dryer or oven, and needs 50 amp service.
Clipper Creek will cost more, but they use premium products. Leviton won't sell their units outright, and you have to hop through their hoops... but it may be cheaper. I know that after having a near fire with my Blink charger, I'm not really worried about saving a few bucks. But, for many folks, the prepackaged Leviton product might be a simple choice.
Dsinned
Well-known member
brownie said:
It's hard to tell from both pictures, but it looks like there are NO spare 240V (double pole, 240V) breakers in either box. This will undoubtedly increase your "installation" cost significantly because this is consider "extra" installation work not covered by the purchase price you pay for the charger itself.
If lucky, you could have an existing circuit rewired, for a lot less in cost, but only if it is for an existing "240V" outlet, such as a electric clothes drier in your garage. However, if you already are using a clothes drier, no way you can use it (legally) for a 2nd appliance, i.e. a Leviton charger, in your garage. 240V outlets must be DEDICATED to only one load circuit, and cannot be "shared". If on the other hand, you have a gas heated drier, you might be able to get away with that, if you plug in the drier to only a 115V outlet and not 240V. Most houses are pre-wired for such a "dedicated" 240V outlet (single receptacle) in close proximity to where ever the clothes drier would be located. That could be in the garage or maybe in a utility closet inside the house. If you have a 240V outlet in your garage and not being used for anything else, then the Levitron charger should be able to connect to it no problem, but only if it is in a favorable location with respect to where your Rav4 EV will be parked, which obviously has to be within the length of the charging cord, typically 25'.
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Tony, when I said "faster", I meant that I wanted a 40a charger over the 32a leviton that was mentioned earlier in the thread. I agree that the clipper creek sounds like it can be installed relatively easily by any Electrician. The other component to my installation is getting wiring from the dedicated TOU meter on the outside of the house to the charger location. I already have the Leviton survey appt so I hope to find out more of what actually needs to be done.
Dsinned, thanks for taking a look at the photos. Our dryer is gas, so maybe we will be lucky. In addition, our washer/dryer is located in the garage, but it is on a wall that's further away from where we would like to put the charger. I'm sure a 25' cord will reach but it might not be convenient as it might get in the way of the washer/dryer. Like I said, I've got the Leviton guy coming tomorrow so he'll probably be able to make some assessments about the availability of the 240v and wiring to the dedicated meter outside.
It helps to "talk" it through, so I'm at least somewhat prepared for his visit.
Dsinned, thanks for taking a look at the photos. Our dryer is gas, so maybe we will be lucky. In addition, our washer/dryer is located in the garage, but it is on a wall that's further away from where we would like to put the charger. I'm sure a 25' cord will reach but it might not be convenient as it might get in the way of the washer/dryer. Like I said, I've got the Leviton guy coming tomorrow so he'll probably be able to make some assessments about the availability of the 240v and wiring to the dedicated meter outside.
It helps to "talk" it through, so I'm at least somewhat prepared for his visit.
Dsinned
Well-known member
TonyWilliams said:
I think Tony meant to say, "Leviton won't sell their <<<40A>>> units outright, . . . "
You most certainly can buy a Leviton "EVB32" series charger, rated for 240V, 32A, with either an 18' output cord for $999, or a 25' cord for $1099, (both available from Home Depot Online, plus tax, with free shipping). You can have one of these installed by an Electrician of your own choosing, or "DIY" if you have the expertise.
A "32A" EVSE L2 EV Charger is still sufficient for the RAV4 EV, but instead of charging at 40A (9.6kW), you charge at 32A (7.7kW). This is still MUCH FASTER than the 120V OEM charging cord that comes with the car, which only charges at 12A or 1.44kW. This is why a full (extended) charge with the OEM charger takes a whooping 52 hours!
However, a full (extended) charge would take ~7 hours at 32A, or 7.7kW, instead of 5 to 6 hours at 40A, or 9.6kW. 32A charging is still ~7 times faster than 120V charging, or ~1/7th as long in duration. (Did I mean to say only 5 times faster or 1/5th as long??? No, because 240V charging is more efficient than 120V charging, and the voltage dependent charging rate is not a linear relationship to power efficiency. Ball park numbers for charging efficiency are probably something like 75 to 80% at 120V, vs. 85 to 90% at 240V, thus the latter can be as much as 15% more efficient than 120V charging regardless of the output current, although the wire gauge and length of the charge cord plays a role in this too).
32A Level2 charging is not an issue to most people who will usually only schedule overnight charging, during the time when their electric company's "off-peak" rates apply. In my case, in Northern CA, PG&E's, lowest, off-peak Winter (tiered) rates are between midnight and 7am, weekdays, and any time except 5 to 9pm on weekends. Off-peak Summer rates are slightly different on weekends, but no matter what time of year, midnight to 7am, ALWAYS would be the best time to recharge your EV, when the main electric power grid is generally under the lowest overall load.
Btw, EVSE L2 chargers in the public domain are usually only rated for 208 to 240V at 32A, not 40A!
BOTTOM LINE . . . if you most often choose to "standard" (vs. extended) charge your RAV EV, the charging duration would be proportionately less time, ~5 to 6 (vs. ~7) hours both at 32A. Thus, you do not need a more expensive 40A charger, to start charging after midnight, to complete by a 7am departure time. 32A charging will still save as much as possible on your electric bill, seven days a week. Also, in many situations, you will not be charging a fully depleted battery, so the actual charging duration will be even less time. In other words, IMHO, "40A" charging may turn out to be "OVERKILL", and in the end cost as much as $500 more than necessary.
This is what I have to add.
1. I am in LADWP area and they know so little it is almost funny. They have just changed there rules and now you have to have the TOU meter to get the 2.5 cent discount. They will pay up to $2000 for the install if you put the second meter. Having the Sub-panel makes this very tricky. I have asked them if they can do a new drop to the garage (I have the same think sub-panel in a garage separate from the house), they do not know if they can do that. If they do not do another drop to the house the only other way I can think of having a second meter is to pull a new set of wires to the garage. In my case it would have to go under ground so I would have to trench form house to garage.
2. I went with the Leviton just to get it done. I had already had the car for 4 weeks and was tired of 120 charging. start to finish it took about 4 weeks. The sub contractor for leviton IES (I think) did good and clean work. They did not leave a manual for the charger and the inspector asked to see it. He still signed off on the work. And yes when the installation was done the charger was ready to use. You also get an eight year warranty on the charger if you have leviton do the work.
Sorry if my thoughts are all over the place.
1. I am in LADWP area and they know so little it is almost funny. They have just changed there rules and now you have to have the TOU meter to get the 2.5 cent discount. They will pay up to $2000 for the install if you put the second meter. Having the Sub-panel makes this very tricky. I have asked them if they can do a new drop to the garage (I have the same think sub-panel in a garage separate from the house), they do not know if they can do that. If they do not do another drop to the house the only other way I can think of having a second meter is to pull a new set of wires to the garage. In my case it would have to go under ground so I would have to trench form house to garage.
2. I went with the Leviton just to get it done. I had already had the car for 4 weeks and was tired of 120 charging. start to finish it took about 4 weeks. The sub contractor for leviton IES (I think) did good and clean work. They did not leave a manual for the charger and the inspector asked to see it. He still signed off on the work. And yes when the installation was done the charger was ready to use. You also get an eight year warranty on the charger if you have leviton do the work.
Sorry if my thoughts are all over the place.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Dryers in garages are typically on 30 amp circuits, so 24 amp would be the max continuous power draw. That would rule out a 30/32 amp unit, or a 40 amp one for a simple direct hookup.
You don't need to suffer with 120 volt only charging ! For less than $300, www.EVSEupgrade.com will convert your unit to 120 and 240 volt. Then, you can charge at 1.44kW virtually anywhere (but seriously, why bother?) and 2.88kW from that existing dryer plug in your garage today! They usually turn around your unit in 2 days.
I've been using mine all week while waiting for my 40 amp to get fixed.
You don't need to suffer with 120 volt only charging ! For less than $300, www.EVSEupgrade.com will convert your unit to 120 and 240 volt. Then, you can charge at 1.44kW virtually anywhere (but seriously, why bother?) and 2.88kW from that existing dryer plug in your garage today! They usually turn around your unit in 2 days.
I've been using mine all week while waiting for my 40 amp to get fixed.
Damchi, thanks for sharing your exprience with LADWP. It sounds like we are in similar situations. What did you eventually do? Did you forgo the rebate? I am hoping that wiring from the dedicated TOU meter on the outside of the house into the garage is not a nightmare.
Tony, I was wondering what the upgraded Panasonic EVSE's were! Thanks for the tip. I've read that a 16A charger will charge from empty in about 12-15 hours. Is that correct? Way better than 44 hours!
Tony, I was wondering what the upgraded Panasonic EVSE's were! Thanks for the tip. I've read that a 16A charger will charge from empty in about 12-15 hours. Is that correct? Way better than 44 hours!
Dsinned
Well-known member
The advantage offered by the OEM charge cord "EVSE upgrade" is that is can be used with ANY single phase AC power source, either 120V, 208V, or 240V, and it can be taken with you in the car where ever you go. For someone on the road a lot on overnight trips within a 100 miles from home, with access to a 240V outlet, such as used by an electric clothes drier, an upgrade to your existing OEM charge cord would be very worthwhile.
Right now we are not changing meters and not going for the discount. And if you plan to put solar on your roof LADWP does not want the panels hooked up to the meter for the charge. And you have to have a different TOU meter for solar. To much to deal with, our electric bill is very low and has not really gone up to much now that we are charging. I also my wife and I can charge at work for free.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
brownie said:
You can only use 12 amps on the Toyota / Panasonic used in the Rav4 and PlugIn Prius.
