ALL POSTS - Heater Failed - Service Bulletin TSB 0111-14

[ddoxey]

To test if the heater is working requires no special tools or knowledge.
1) Use a simple 10mm socket or wrench to remove the 5 screws from the black plastic "motor cover" that says Toyota (or does it say RAV4 EV?)
2) Remove the plastic cover
3) Turn on car to READY
4) Turn on cabin heater to AUTO with a temperature setting well above ambient
5) Put your hand on the physical Denso 6kW cabin heater... it should be getting hot
6) If not, you need a new cabin heater.

It doesn't look like swapping out that heater unit is too difficult. I'd be interested to know more about how the coolant purge procedure is performed.

I'm curious about this text from doug401's service tech.

...
Verified no heat from heater, Inspected Continuity of cabin heater fuse through DC/DC converter at cabin heater terminal + to main power cable, has open circuit. Inspected resistance of cabin heater at cabin heater connector, has 222 ohms at connector (readings same checked + to - & - to +). Needs cabin heater & DC/DC converter. Called TAS case #TA133430164. Replaced in cabin heater & DC/DC converter. Performed collant air purge & thermal system test. rd tested ok, heater operation normal
...

Do you suppose this operation is documented in techinfo.toyota.com somewhere? I'd like to be able to determine if my DC/DC converter is affected.

 

[ddoxey]

Did you mean to say I could simply replace the diode in the DC-DC? Any idea the part number (or rating/size)?

I took one apart.
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25523#p25523

The diodes in question look like Bussmann FWP-40A14Fa.
http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...sheets-b/Bus_Ele_DS_720025_FWP-(5-50)A14F.pdf

These look fairly abundant on e-bay.

 

[Christopher Castagne]

Here is the 1st page. I did not ask for a full 4 page but it contained what I need to know.

LLN

Thanks! that is really interesting info.
Everyone after Vin number 3299 has a "updated PTC heater"

Good to know, thank you for posting!

Agreed. I've been wearing Google out trying to find a trace of this document online somewhere.

The term "Production Change Effective VIN" suggests that Toyota expects this problem does not occur after this VIN?

I've read every single post on this thread twice over. From what I can tell ...
* the heater unit has a high failure rate (percentage unknown)
* a failed heater unit is known to cause damage to the DC/DC converter unit (but not always)
* a damaged DC/DC converter is known to lead to complete failure (in at least one case)
* the heater is not known to fail again after being replaced
* Toyota corporate is known to be sympathetic and offer a 30% discount on the repair (in at lease one case).

I would expect that the part number 87101-42010 would change -- i.e. 87101-42010 are known to be defective and a different part number is known to be the improved replacement. Is this not the case? How do the parts distributors know the difference? Are they marked with production dates, and are they inclined to withdraw the older production units from the shelves?

There is not very much information on the Manufacturer's website: http://www.eberspacher.com/products/electrical-heaters.html

URGENT: How safe is it to drive with the cabin heater out - can one avoid it taking out the dc-c converter if one simply avoids turning on the cabin heat??


So I was all excited to announce that I finally joined the Rav4EV club but here's my story - picked up a really nice shoreline blue at Cabe Toyota, 55k miles + extended used car warranty this weekend. Only thing was that cabin heater wasn't getting warm. I wasn't gonna take it then the sales guy says "If we give it to you in writing that we'll fix it, can we earn your business today" I say "it's expensive, it could be a few thousand $$" but he isn't listening, eager to make the sale...

We go ahead with it, I get it in writing as part of the contract, meanwhile I say it is covered by the warranty anyway so it should be fine...

Now the guy calls me today saying they cant afford to fix it (!!) AND that since my Platinum Warranty only kicks in after like 30 days I cant even get it fixed at another dealer until after 30 days... I tell him well you should give me a loaner vehicle, or a discount to pay for a loaner, he calls back and says that his sales manager says they brought down the price so much already they have no room to pay for a loaner or give me a discount but I can return the car and they'll give us a full refund.

Our thing is - we like the car - we just want it fixed! What should I do/ say?? I'm scared to continue driving it if it can cause more serious damage. He says that his service manager says he doesn't think there is any risk to driving it for 30 days but can I really trust anything these people say?! (I also read an earlier post in this thread, from way back 2014 or something so maybe they didnt know back then, but some one here said that Toyota corporate "considers the vehicle unsafe" to drive with the cabin heater out??)

 

[llnsj]

URGENT: How safe is it to drive with the cabin heater out - can one avoid it taking out the dc-c converter if one simply avoids turning on the cabin heat??


Our thing is - we like the car - we just want it fixed! What should I do/ say?? I'm scared to continue driving it if it can cause more serious damage. He says that his service manager says he doesn't think there is any risk to driving it for 30 days but can I really trust anything these people say?! (I also read an earlier post in this thread, from way back 2014 or something so maybe they didnt know back then, but some one here said that Toyota corporate "considers the vehicle unsafe" to drive with the cabin heater out??)[/quote][/quote][/quote]

If it's about safety you shouldn't have to worry. Mine was out for weeks after I noticed the issue. The worst it could have screen of death so you can't drive anymore. (I think it could be reset with proper procedure). It will not break down in middle of road.

llnsj

 

[TonyWilliams]

This is a non-event. If you like the car, wait the 30 days and get it fixed.

It's safe to drive, and its not damaging anything in the car now that it's broken.

 

[Christopher Castagne]

Thanks Tony and LLN

now we're noticing that while we drive, the eco-light on the dash goes on and off randomly. Also the climate control (AC) seems to be blowing even when we have it off - we still feel some air coming out. Not much but enough to notice if you put your hand in front of it. More concerning is that the climate control mode seems to be changing on its own while we are driving. Is it possible that these kinds of issues have anything to do with the DC-DC converter? Seems unlikely to me but I'm just asking - I saw one post where someone mentioned this issue before.

 

[ddoxey]

Thanks Tony and LLN

now we're noticing that while we drive, the eco-light on the dash goes on and off randomly. Also the climate control (AC) seems to be blowing even when we have it off - we still feel some air coming out. Not much but enough to notice if you put your hand in front of it. More concerning is that the climate control mode seems to be changing on its own while we are driving. Is it possible that these kinds of issues have anything to do with the DC-DC converter? Seems unlikely to me but I'm just asking - I saw one post where someone mentioned this issue before.

You will probably get some air circulation if the fresh/recirc setting is set to take in fresh air.

 

[dstjohn99]

The green ECO light is on when driving moderately (acceleration below the white arc zone) in D. It will not come on in B mode.

 

[KurtManz]

Reading this thread I got curious about the heater in my rav4ev.
After following the instructions I think mine has a broken heater but a working dc/dc.

Has anybody in the Seattle area gone through the process of getting one repaired?
Any tips to share?

I did get an extended warranty and I'll wait for the paperwork to arrive. Thankfully we're still at the peak of the summer so I have a few months before it gets cold.
Do you contact Toyota corp first? or do you try to work with one of the local dealers?

 

[AlanS]

Did you mean to say I could simply replace the diode in the DC-DC? Any idea the part number (or rating/size)?

I took one apart.
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25523#p25523

The diodes in question look like Bussmann FWP-40A14Fa.
http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...sheets-b/Bus_Ele_DS_720025_FWP-(5-50)A14F.pdf

These look fairly abundant on e-bay.

Thank you ddoxey for the most informative post so far.
Another failed heater in Seattle.
I recently moved from California, it's cold here....you know the rest.
I measured the resistance of the heater, 320 Ohms. Someone else measured another failed heater at around 250 Ohms if I remember.
I haven't seen the value of a working one should be. Somebody please measure.
I suppose it should be 20 to 25 Ohms if the spec is 6000W@360V.
I am contemplating replacing the heater with a unit made of water heater elements. 3 elements 120V 2,000W should work great and be more rugged; there is plenty of space to install.
There is a three wire sensor on the stock heater, probably a thermistor. Has anybody taken a defective unit apart and found out the specs of the sensor? Thanks

 

[smkettner]

Is the heater assembly really $2,235.07?

https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~bracket~sub~assy~he~87101-42010.html

Is there some other generic available for less or just the heating element from DENSO?
Looks like I will be getting by with the seat heaters. Too bad none on the rear seats.
Just happy the DC-DC converter continues to work.

 

[ddoxey]

Is the heater assembly really $2,235.07?

https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~bracket~sub~assy~he~87101-42010.html

Is there some other generic available for less or just the heating element from DENSO?
Looks like I will be getting by with the seat heaters. Too bad none on the rear seats.
Just happy the DC-DC converter continues to work.

I got one on eBay for $350. It's been working great for around 6 months, or so.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I have a failed unit at the shop.

 

[asavage]

I've joined the club. 72k miles.

No heat on Sunday, made appt. for today (Tues.) and dropped it off at 6am, just got the diagnosis (11am): DC-DC converter & heater to be replaced.

Surprisingly, they may have the parts in by day after tomorrow.

I use Toyota of Seattle as my servicing dealer. They have not screwed up yet, sample size of three visits. They do always lead with "$149 diagnosis fee", but so far I've never paid it, because the repairs have so far been covered items under either the original 60k warranty or the extended warranty.

[two days later]

Done, and back in my driveway Total charged to Toyota Extra Care -- Vehicle Service Agreement (TEC VSA) was $5.3k .



Heater = 87101-42010, $2,775
DC Converter = G9270-0R011, $2,296 (<- possibly same/interchangeable as Tesla Model S 6009170-00)

Not charged: either of the coolants (blue G48 and pink) that waidy had on his repair ticket.

Interesting note, "PERFORMED TESLA FIRMWARE UPDATE". The underhood sticker has not changed, still reads 1.3.101 .


Some thoughts on this . . .

T-SB-0111-14 : HVAC - Heater Inoperative (pdf)

Referring to ddoxey's pictures, I've got a couple of thoughts on working with a blown 40A, 400v fuse inside the DC-DC Converter.

1) It looks possible to cut an access hatch hole in the cover on the end of the case, to service the fuse without fighting the glue. Tricky part: preventing swarf from migrating to anywhere inside. I've done this kind of work before, it can be done but it's best to have practice before working on expensive parts.

2) It looks possible to externally bypass that fuse altogether, installing an external weatherproof, HV fuse holder to feed the Denso heater. I haven't found a suitable weatherproof fuse holder for 14mm x 51mm ferrule fuses.*

There seem to be quite a few people selling the Tesla version of this with "fuse replaced" indicated, so breaking the adhesive seal and later re-gluing seems to be viable for a lot of people.

[later]

* According to this post, the later Teslas -- after about Jan2014 -- moved these fuses out of the DC-DC Converter into its own fuse holder: forward junction box.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The cabin heater usually works, or it doesn't. No in between. Are you really in Panama with the Rav4 EV?

 

[chrisspy]

Joined the club, 2nd owner at 33Kmi, 2013. Not sure what I can add to this post that'd be helpful. Shipping parts takes 3-5d but if they get this 3hr job done when they arrive, car is at dealer for 1 week. Practice makes perfect, LOL. Toy extended warranty will take fees & 5d car rental (except gas & $2/d). Planned on bringing EV to car show Sat but will bring PHEV instead; still looking forward to meeting the sole other RAV4EV owner in MA then.

 

[smkettner]

$5,400 list price is just crazy for this repair. This is the reason mine was traded in.

 

[asavage]

Tesla later moved the fuses to a separate junction box, and the DC-DC didn't have to be replaced to get the fuses replaced. We're saddled with the older design.

And, still, the fuses can be replaced, it's just labor. $5400 is new parts, everything replaced, but I will guess that having both the heater and DC-DC repaired by QCP is a lot less than half that.

Here, we refer to our Model 3 as a "beta car", because while Tesla gets a lot of things right, they also get things wrong, and our RAV4s inherit that same philosophy. We're early adopters and suffering the consequences.

I'm still very happy to have my RA4 EV. Well, once it gets shipped back from Auburn, Calif.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Joined the club, 2nd owner at 33Kmi, 2013. Not sure what I can add to this post that'd be helpful. Shipping parts takes 3-5d but if they get this 3hr job done when they arrive, car is at dealer for 1 week. Practice makes perfect, LOL. Toy extended warranty will take fees & 5d car rental (except gas & $2/d). Planned on bringing EV to car show Sat but will bring PHEV instead; still looking forward to meeting the sole other RAV4EV owner in MA then.

I installed a JdeMO™ on a RAV4 EV in eastern Massachusetts. That car was repossessed, and the car was auctioned from Toyota Financial.

 

[asavage]

Can anybody contribute DIY information on replacing the heater with the later/more reliable Denso unit? The fuse replacement is documented, but are people using the early Leaf heaters as a replacement for the one used in the RAV4 EV?

The Toyota version has an integrated HV harness:





The early Leaf unit has a connector on the unit instead:




I can see buying a Leaf unit and a bit of a Leaf's heater harness, then splicing the Leaf harness to the RAV4 EV's heater's harness . . .



. . . which is straighforward enough, but is there a better solution?