ALL POSTS - Heater Failed - Service Bulletin TSB 0111-14

[fromport]

I just got my car back. My bill was $4624 AFTER Toyota chipped in 30%. The parts quoted on mine were much higher than yours. I think you can expect/hope 30% sharing from Toyota.

wowzers.. that hurts

BTW, I did ask for this TSB 0111-14 and read the print out. Basically it's is ONLY covered in the basic warranty 36mo/36K only. Well, if it's under warranty then they had to cover anyway. I talked to the service advisor and he told me most TSB were only applicable for 36mos/36K on basic warranty only.
LLN

Did you happen to take a picture of TSB 0111-14 you could post here ?

 

[llnsj]

Did you happen to take a picture of TSB 0111-14 you could post here ?

No, It's long 20 pages or so document. The front page clearly stated that it's required for 36mo/36k basic warranty.warranty.

LLN

 

[llnsj]

I just purchased my 2013 Rav4 EV, with 25K miles, about two weeks ago. I just love the way this car drives and I'm tickled pink that I'm never going to buy gasoline again.

That's around $3,957.54 in parts and coolant. If I'm on the hook for the full cost then I'll be doing the work myself.

If you knew it costed that much to fix, would you still buy the car at that price?
Did you do your research and know about this very common issue on this car?

Keep in mind that you have to fix it as some day this heater+DC-DC converter can trigger EV check screen of death and you can only tow to dealer.

LLN

 

[ddoxey]

Interested to hear how it goes with Toyota El Cajon, that's where I take my Rav. Also, if you bought it 2 weeks ago, isn't there some sort of 30 day or warranty - if it was broken when you bought it?

Depends where he bought the car. When I was looking at RAV4 EVs sold by two different Toyota dealers, they came with 1 year 10,000 miles service agreement at no additional charge.

I bought my Rav4 EV at Nash Auto in Costa Mesa. I suppose if I had read this thread first, I would have been more particular and found one being sold as "certified" at a Toyota dealership. Rather, I was seduced by the price and low mileage. Even if I end up spending around $5k for repairing the heater I think I will still be happy with my purchase.

If Toyota pays 30% for the repair that might be just enough to dissuade me from taking on the work myself.

I sure could have used a windshield defogger this morning!

 

[miimura]

Interested to hear how it goes with Toyota El Cajon, that's where I take my Rav. Also, if you bought it 2 weeks ago, isn't there some sort of 30 day or warranty - if it was broken when you bought it?

Depends where he bought the car. When I was looking at RAV4 EVs sold by two different Toyota dealers, they came with 1 year 10,000 miles service agreement at no additional charge.

I bought my Rav4 EV at Nash Auto in Costa Mesa. I suppose if I had read this thread first, I would have been more particular and found one being sold as "certified" at a Toyota dealership. Rather, I was seduced by the price and low mileage. Even if I end up spending around $5k for repairing the heater I think I will still be happy with my purchase.

If Toyota pays 30% for the repair that might be just enough to dissuade me from taking on the work myself.

I sure could have used a windshield defogger this morning!

Just for the record, Certified doesn't mean much. The important thing is that the Toyota dealers can sell the used car with the Platinum Used Car Service Agreement for up to 5 years and 60k miles from the time of sale.

 

[Aries]

So what actually goes wrong with this heater? Does it somehow dead-short and blow something in the dc-dc converter?

Can the heater simply be disconnected (before failing, obviously) to avoid the risk of issue, of course at the expense of not having cabin heat?

Or perhaps suitable fusing could be added to blow before taking out the dc-dc?

And.. does anyone know what actually goes wrong with the dc-dc? Is there a particular blown component that can be replaced to repair?

For those who have had to replace these items out of warranty.. it might be interesting to retain the old parts and examine to see if there is anything obvious as to what happened....

 

[ddoxey]

...

I disconnected the 12 volt battery, opened and disconnected the Main breaker/high voltage disconnect (which they disconnected to work on the HV dc-dc converter & heating element).
I re-seated the HV breaker/disconnect.
reconnected the 12 volt battery.
Car came to live (loaded navigation etc)
pressed brake and "CLICK" HV came online. problem fixed

...

This looks like a pretty important procedure to understand. The "Main breaker/high voltage disconnect", is that the large fuse near the forward driver-side area under the hood, or are we talking about the "plug grip" that's located under the passenger seat? Are you referring to the same thing, or two different things, in the first two steps?

 

[fromport]

I disconnected the 12 volt battery, opened and disconnected the Main breaker/high voltage disconnect (which they disconnected to work on the HV dc-dc converter & heating element).
I re-seated the HV breaker/disconnect.
reconnected the 12 volt battery.
Car came to live (loaded navigation etc)
pressed brake and "CLICK" HV came online. problem fixed

This looks like a pretty important procedure to understand. The "Main breaker/high voltage disconnect", is that the large fuse near the forward driver-side area under the hood, or are we talking about the "plug grip" that's located under the passenger seat? Are you referring to the same thing, or two different things, in the first two steps?

The one "underneath" the passenger seat that is pulled in case of emercency by a first responder.
Apart from being a fuse, it has extra contacts that maintain a loop. As soon as the unit is removed, the loop is broken and the "computer" knows something is wrong in the High Voltage circuit and refuses to close the main contactor.

 

[llnsj]

Did you happen to take a picture of TSB 0111-14 you could post here ?

Here is the 1st page. I did not ask for a full 4 page but it contained what I need to know.

LLN

 

[fromport]

Here is the 1st page. I did not ask for a full 4 page but it contained what I need to know.

LLN

Thanks! that is really interesting info.
Everyone after Vin number 3299 has a "updated PTC heater"

Good to know, thank you for posting!

 

[ddoxey]

Here is the 1st page. I did not ask for a full 4 page but it contained what I need to know.

LLN

Thanks! that is really interesting info.
Everyone after Vin number 3299 has a "updated PTC heater"

Good to know, thank you for posting!

Agreed. I've been wearing Google out trying to find a trace of this document online somewhere.

The term "Production Change Effective VIN" suggests that Toyota expects this problem does not occur after this VIN?

I've read every single post on this thread twice over. From what I can tell ...
* the heater unit has a high failure rate (percentage unknown)
* a failed heater unit is known to cause damage to the DC/DC converter unit (but not always)
* a damaged DC/DC converter is known to lead to complete failure (in at least one case)
* the heater is not known to fail again after being replaced
* Toyota corporate is known to be sympathetic and offer a 30% discount on the repair (in at lease one case).

I would expect that the part number 87101-42010 would change -- i.e. 87101-42010 are known to be defective and a different part number is known to be the improved replacement. Is this not the case? How do the parts distributors know the difference? Are they marked with production dates, and are they inclined to withdraw the older production units from the shelves?

There is not very much information on the Manufacturer's website: http://www.eberspacher.com/products/electrical-heaters.html

 

[llnsj]

I've read every single post on this thread twice over. From what I can tell ...
* the heater unit has a high failure rate (percentage unknown)
* a failed heater unit is known to cause damage to the DC/DC converter unit (but not always)
* a damaged DC/DC converter is known to lead to complete failure (in at least one case)
* the heater is not known to fail again after being replaced
* Toyota corporate is known to be sympathetic and offer a 30% discount on the repair (in at least one case).

I would expect that the part number 87101-42010 would change -- i.e. 87101-42010 are known to be defective and a different part number is known to be the improved replacement. Is this not the case? How do the parts distributors know the difference? Are they marked with production dates, and are they inclined to withdraw the older production units from the shelves?

Your summary is good. I don't know why I am the only one got the car into Check EV screen of death. Probably it should be in service right after the heater malfunction but I tried to avoid the cost when dealing with no heat. I am not sure that heater is also used to warm the battery up in the winter so if it's totally failed the system shutdown.

I have tried to pull 12v battery out to reset the sensor but I might need to reset the traction battery and that circuit too. I will remember that if I ever see any issue again.

I will get my paperwork to give you the replacement part numbers on the invoice later.

LLN

 

[fromport]

I am not sure that heater is also used to warm the battery up in the winter so if it's totally failed the system shutdown.

If I remember correctly, Tony said there is a seperate (6kW ?) heater for the batteries.
When my cabin heater failed, I could still feel a little bit of warmth (barely above ambient) coming from the vents.
I wondered if that is some heat being produced by part of the "broken" heater or that the cabin and battery heater share the same fluid and some warm fluid of the battery fluid creeps into the cabin loop.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I am not sure that heater is also used to warm the battery up in the winter so if it's totally failed the system shutdown.

If I remember correctly, Tony said there is a seperate (6kW ?) heater for the batteries.
When my cabin heater failed, I could still feel a little bit of warmth (barely above ambient) coming from the vents.
I wondered if that is some heat being produced by part of the "broken" heater or that the cabin and battery heater share the same fluid and some warm fluid of the battery fluid creeps into the cabin loop.

Totally separate heating systems with completely different fluids:

1) ZeroStart heater with blue/green G48 fluid for the Tesla battery

2) Denso 6kW heater with pink Dextron for the Toyota cabin heater

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10471#p10471

 

[smkettner]

OK so my heater seems to have quit tonight. I assume it is best to get it into the dealer before the converter goes with it?
Any quick test besides setting temp to HI and cc to Auto?

 

[llnsj]

OK so my heater seems to have quit tonight. I assume it is best to get it into the dealer before the converter goes with it?
Any quick test besides setting temp to HI and cc to Auto?

Check the AUX Power monitor. If heater is working it would use more than nothing.

LLN

 

[fromport]

OK so my heater seems to have quit tonight. I assume it is best to get it into the dealer before the converter goes with it?
Any quick test besides setting temp to HI and cc to Auto?

Check the AUX Power monitor. If heater is working it would use more than nothing.

LLN

I doubt it actually measures the actual usage of the heater.
I assume the software just displays a certain amount of power based of the fact it should be on and thus drawing a certain amount.

Smkettner: please check with a volt meter the voltage of the 12 volt battery when rav4ev is off.
Then turn it on and check voltage again.
Should be higher than first measurement.
If not your dc-dc converter is already out and you are draining the 12 volt battery to the point where it give a "lo" warning and refuses to operate.
Compared to ice we don't have an indicator light for the alternator not charging the 12 volt battery.

 

[TonyWilliams]

To test if the heater is working requires no special tools or knowledge.

1) Use a simple 10mm socket or wrench to remove the 5 screws from the black plastic "motor cover" that says Toyota (or does it say RAV4 EV?)

2) Remove the plastic cover

3) Turn on car to READY

4) Turn on cabin heater to AUTO with a temperature setting well above ambient

5) Put your hand on the physical Denso 6kW cabin heater... it should be getting hot

6) If not, you need a new cabin heater.

 

[smkettner]

Then turn it on and check voltage again.
Should be higher than first measurement.

12.4 to 14.6 verified last night.

will further test the 6kW Denso this weekend.

looks like easy R&R but I will leave this to the pros.
My worry would be getting the air out of the heater so it does not burn itself up before the pump fills it up.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Then turn it on and check voltage again.
Should be higher than first measurement.

12.4 to 14.6 verified last night.

will further test the 6kW Denso this weekend.

looks like easy R&R but I will leave this to the pros.
My worry would be getting the air out of the heater so it does not burn itself up before the pump fills it up.

If you know that air bubbles could cause a problem, you're probably smart enough to swap the heater unit.

You already know that the DC to DC converter survived the failed heater.