Petition to Costco to install chargers

[Michael Bornstein]

I came across this petition on the Leaf Forum:

Many years ago, Costco made a proactive decision to provide electric vehicle charging for their members at 90 locations across the United States. Unfortunately due to politics and the lack of manufacturer support, the stations went unused and Costco removed the stations. But now, over 260,000 plug in vehicles have been sold in the United States since 2008 and those numbers are rapidly increasing. As Bloomberg has recently reported, many businesses are realizing the advantage of providing electric vehicle charging for their customers as it motivates the customer to stay longer in their stores and spend more while charging their vehicle and shop more frequently.


We, the undersigned, all have something in common. We really love our electric vehicles, and we really love shopping at Costco. We have found the value of both and would love to have them come together. We would love to see Costco make electric vehicle charging available to its members in a way that is more in focus with Costco’s pledge to support sustainability. We’d love to see them placed on the perimeter of the store property so they don’t appear preferential as they did in the past. They also don’t necessarily need to be free, but a reasonable cost to cover electrical costs would be perfectly acceptable, and with today’s networking technologies, charging could be limited to just Costco members. Note this will not take away from your current gasoline sales as the purchasing decision by us as members has already happened.


Regardless of how Costco implements charging, simply providing charging while we shop would be a great benefit for us as members. We would spend more time at Costco, shop Costco more frequently and make more purchases in doing so. Studies have shown that customers that utilize public charging provided by a retailer spend more money with that retailer. Kohls, Target, businesses around Tesla Superchargers and even casinos around the country are quietly taking advantage of having a captive customer.


Many of us have sent letters, talked to supervisors and managers at our Costcos or written as individuals to the CEO, but the issue with these methods is that the demand has been splintered down to a few individuals and not from the electric vehicle community as a whole.


We, the undersigned, as electric vehicle owners, potential owners or enthusiasts are signing this petition as a group to show Costco that the demand by members is real and we would truly appreciate the ability to charge our vehicles at our local Costco warehouse. We hope this petition makes Costco aware of this demand and that they respond with an invigorated reintroduction of plug in vehicle charging as soon as possible.

PLEASE SIGN PETITION AT THIS SITE: https://www.change.org/p/craig-peal-assistant-vice-president-for-energy-and-building-controls-costco-provide-members-with-the-ability-to-charge-their-electric-vehicles-while-shopping-at-costco?recruiter=66051220&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=share_twitter_responsive

Thsnks

 

[TonyWilliams]

The petition has already been sent to Costco, and Costco has already replied. They are actively installing charge stations.

But, they still want to hear from the membership to determine where to install in the future. I recommend using the suggestion box, or better, contact a manager and leave a note supporting charging stations at your nearby Costco location.

 

[cossie1600]

What's the point, guarantee it will always be full and likely taken by a Volt

 

[davewill]

What's the point, guarantee it will always be full and likely taken by a Volt

What's wrong with that? Beats being unused or ICEd. A Volt or Pip is much more likely to need a charge during a short, local stop like that than a car like the Rav anyway.

 

[TonyWilliams]

What's the point, guarantee it will always be full and likely taken by a Volt

What's wrong with that? Beats being unused or ICEd. A Volt or Pip is much more likely to need a charge during a short, local stop like that than a car like the Rav anyway.

I would put in the suggestion box to include one:

1) at least one DC multi-standard (CHAdeMO and CCS) charger rated at 120 / 125 amps

2) at least one J1772 or Tesla HPWC rated at 80 amps for Tesla. Tesla may give thes HPWC away for free.

3) one or more 30 amp J1772 for all cars (for hybrids like the GM Volt through Nissan LEAF all-electric cars). This is the size that ALL cars can use.

 

[Weekdayskier]

I believe that unless there are multiple chargers, they should not be free. At the mall in Pleasanton, I've found that the chargers are usually 50% occupied. At 40¢ per kWh, the volts and PIPs will bypass the chargers.

Or, have 2 that are free and 2 that cost $. I don't plug in unless I need the charge, usually when driving more than a single charge allows. I'm willing to pay for this convenience when I need it

 

[tjka4231]

I sent an email to Costco customer service asking them about any plans to install chargers at their warehouse locations. Here's the reply.

We appreciate you taking the time to email Costco Wholesale.

At this time, we do not have plans for a company-wide roll out for chargers at this point. Some locations are getting them to satisfy local or state requirements (for example, all Hawaii locations will be getting one each over the next couple of months and they will also be added to some of the new warehouses in California). However, at this point, there is no major roll out planned.

Your feedback will be forwarded to the appropriate department for their review. Thank you for taking the time to share your comments with us.



Thank you,

Sue G
Member Service Center
Costco Wholesale Corporation

 

[cossie1600]

What's the point, guarantee it will always be full and likely taken by a Volt

What's wrong with that? Beats being unused or ICEd. A Volt or Pip is much more likely to need a charge during a short, local stop like that than a car like the Rav anyway.

Why waste the money to install one to allow people to top off? I would much rather have it at a small cost so only people who really need it uses it.

 

[TonyWilliams]

It doesn't sound like these will be free at Costco, anyway (which I support).

 

[4EVEREV]

Too bad Costco cards don't have RFID or some way to authenticate to the EVSE, this would help quite a bit.

 

[davewill]

Why waste the money to install one to allow people to top off? I would much rather have it at a small cost so only people who really need it uses it.

Why do you consider charging an PHEV so it doesn't have to burn gas, "topping off" and a "waste"? EV bigotry always sounds pretty lame to me.

 

[eschatfische]

Why do you consider charging an PHEV so it doesn't have to burn gas, "topping off" and a "waste"? EV bigotry always sounds pretty lame to me.

Because Plug-in Priuses increasingly dominate free charging stations, very much limiting the clean-energy benefit of those stations and keeping drivers of BEVs from being able to charge in an emergency.

Let's say that a Plug-in Prius parks at a mall with a free 6.6kW EVSE, and visits that mall for four hours. At most, the PiP can pick up 4.4kWh of energy for 13 miles of range. It will charge for an hour and 15 minutes, and then sit idle, adding 13 miles of effective driving range in a total of four hours.

However, that spot has the potential to do much more. Park a depleted late-model Leaf, RAV4 EV or Tesla at that spot for four hours, and the car will take 22 - 26.4 kWh of energy, supplying 80-some miles of range.

Even if the space sits empty for three hours, with one of the BEVs charging for only an hour, there is more utility in terms of range and CO2/pollution reduction provided by EVSE than with the Plug-in Prius. In addition, the space can be more easily accessed without a wait by a BEV driver who absolutely needs the charge in order to drive, an issue the Plug-in Prius driver does not face. There's virtually no benefit to either the public or the driver for the PiP to charge there, and the driver is wasting a public resource.

This is why we'll ultimately need to charge on a timed basis for public EVSEs. Put a price on it, and the PiP driver will quickly get the message that it's not worth it for them to park at public chargers beyond that which is necessary to operate their car (which is to say, not long). It's great that PiP drivers want to help out with climate change and the adoption of battery-powered cars, but we need to prioritize charging for the cars that fully take advantage of and require the electricity.

 

[davewill]

... This is why we'll ultimately need to charge on a timed basis for public EVSEs. Put a price on it, and the PiP driver will quickly get the message that it's not worth it for them to park at public chargers beyond that which is necessary to operate their car (which is to say, not long). It's great that PiP drivers want to help out with climate change and the adoption of battery-powered cars, but we need to prioritize charging for the cars that fully take advantage of and require the electricity.

Most EVSEs do charge by time, usually time plugged not time charging. Besides, I can make the opposite argument. A lot of EVs, especially longer range ones like Tesla and Rav4, charge just to get the cool parking spot or because they can, but they don't really need the charge, so there's no environmental benefit. They'll drive the exact same number of EV miles whether they charge at the mall or not. For a PHEV, on the other hand, even a short charge often creates an immediate tangible benefit of increased EV miles vs. ICE miles. But the answer to all of these complaints is NOT trying to push PHEVs or EVs aside, it's increasing the number of stations so that ALL users have ready access.

Meanwhile we need to keep all users welcome rather than trying to marginalize some.

 

[eschatfische]

Most EVSEs do charge by time, usually time plugged not time charging.

Where's your source for that? The EVSEs from the major charging networks charge by kWh, by session, by subscription or are free. While I understand that EVSEs that charge based on time exist, I've never once actually encountered a station that charges by time in the wild.

A lot of EVs, especially longer range ones like Tesla and Rav4, charge just to get the cool parking spot or because they can, but they don't really need the charge, so there's no environmental benefit.

That doesn't make any sense. If any EV is drawing power, and that power will be used to move the car, and that power has not been produced by burning gas (or something worse), it benefits the environment. Are you saying that BEVs have less benefit to the environment than PHEVs? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

Let me put it another way: a Tesla owner whose only motivation is a cool spot but who offsets 45 miles of gas driving with 2 hours at a charging station does substantially more environmental good than a very, very serious and committed Plug-in Prius driver who offsets 13 miles of gas driving with 2 hours at the same station, blocking the Tesla or another BEV.

What matters is the amount of gasoline-burning the EV offsets through the use of the space. By the fundamentals of its design, the Plug-in Prius can offset only a very small amount of gasoline-driving range in comparison with any highway-legal BEV.

That said, if I've misunderstood and you're saying that no EVs of any type should be parked at a public EVSE when they're not charging, we're in agreement there. If that were the case, however, one wouldn't expect to see a PiP at a public EVSE very often given how little they can charge.

For a PHEV, on the other hand, even a short charge often creates an immediate tangible benefit of increased EV miles vs. ICE miles.

Even a short charge often creates an immediate tangible benefit of increased EV miles vs. ICE miles for a BEV too. And for BEVs that have faster charging systems than the PHEVs - which is the majority of them - the tangible benefit is even greater.

But the answer to all of these complaints is NOT trying to push PHEVs or EVs aside, it's increasing the number of stations so that ALL users have ready access.

That's all fine and good, but we're decades away from that. In the meantime, with the limited number of spaces, all EV drivers should ensure that they're only using EV charging spaces when their EV is actively charging.

Meanwhile we need to keep all users welcome rather than trying to marginalize some.

Have you ever been driving a BEV that needed a charge and asked a PHEV owner plugging in if you could use their space at a free public charger instead when all of the other spaces are blocked? Try it sometime, in a tactful and friendly fashion, and get back to me on how welcomed you feel.

 

[davewill]

Most EVSEs do charge by time, usually time plugged not time charging.

Where's your source for that? The EVSEs from the major charging networks charge by kWh, by session, by subscription or are free. While I understand that EVSEs that charge based on time exist, I've never once actually encountered a station that charges by time in the wild.

EVGo charges by connection time, so do a lot of ChargePoint stations.

A lot of EVs, especially longer range ones like Tesla and Rav4, charge just to get the cool parking spot or because they can, but they don't really need the charge, so there's no environmental benefit.

That doesn't make any sense. If any EV is drawing power, and that power will be used to move the car, and that power has not been produced by burning gas (or something worse), it benefits the environment. Are you saying that BEVs have less benefit to the environment than PHEVs? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

A Rav4 or Tesla can probably make it home from Costco or the local mall no problem, and the public charge session means nothing to how man EV miles they're going to get.

Meanwhile we need to keep all users welcome rather than trying to marginalize some.

Have you ever been driving a BEV that needed a charge and asked a PHEV owner plugging in if you could use their space at a free public charger instead when all of the other spaces are blocked? Try it sometime, in a tactful and friendly fashion, and get back to me on how welcomed you feel.

There are nice people and rude people in every group. You must have run into a rude one.

Basically, if we have to fight over who gets to use EVSEs like you seem to want to, places like Costco are just going to say, "Meh, why bother".

 

[eschatfische]

A Rav4 or Tesla can probably make it home from Costco or the local mall no problem

That's provably incorrect. There are any number of areas where there are no or very limited charging opportunities between an arbitrary mall and an arbitrary home, whereas there is a network of gas stations across the country that will allow the PiP to get home without a problem even if it only has a tiny amount of fuel.

What I suspect you meant to say is that the limited range of a PHEV makes it less likely that a vehicle can make a conventional trip without invoking the ICE, whereas by their design a RAV4 EV or Tesla is required to make it home on electricity, meaning that letting the PHEV charge is a more efficient use of the charger. This is an absurd statement.

Quick, which is the most preferable scenario?

* A BEV blocks a PHEV at a free charging station for two hours. The BEV adds 46 miles of range. The PHEV is forced to drive 13 miles on its ICE more than it would have.
* A PHEV blocks a BEV at a free charging station for two hours. The PHEV adds 13 miles of range. The BEV runs out of energy before making it home and needs to be towed 12 miles.
* A PHEV blocks a BEV at a free charging station for two hours. The PHEV adds 13 miles of range. The BEV has to sit around for two hours before the owner of the PHEV comes back to get enough power to get home.

We all know the answer to that one. Of course, those are extreme cases. Which of these "best case" scenarios is worse?

* A BEV blocks a PHEV at a free charging station for two hours. The BEV adds 46 miles of range. The PHEV is forced to drive 13 more miles on its ICE more than it would have.
* A PHEV blocks a BEV at a free charging station for two hours. The PHEV adds 13 miles of range. The BEV can still make it home on the last part of a prior charge.

In the first scenario, the charging station has offset 33 miles of potential ICE driving, even with the 13 miles of lost potential from the PHEV factored in. In the second, the charging station has offset only 13 miles of ICE driving. It is difficult to say that the first situation is worse than the second.

Your response would be "but the BEV driver can just drive home and charge there." Except, you know, when they can't. There are any number of scenarios where they can't. BEVs don't magically have enough power to go everywhere they want to go, and rely on the charging stations. PHEVs do not.

Your response would be "but behaviorally, the BEV owner will fill up at home, so it's better for the PHEV to use the station." But if a BEV driver finds they can't get enough energy at public stations to reliably make various trips without great inconvenience because they're blocked by PHEVs, they will proactively own or rent a gas-powered car for their trips, which will end up using more gas than the intermittent gas use of the PHEV.

the public charge session means nothing to how man EV miles they're going to get.

I don't even know what you mean by that. Of course public charging can make a difference in how many miles an EV can be driven.

Basically, if we have to fight over who gets to use EVSEs like you seem to want to, places like Costco are just going to say, "Meh, why bother".

Nobody has to fight. Everybody has to move their EV when it's done charging. In places with limited charging stations, they should be billed by the hour, or a certain number should be reserved for BEVs, or there should be a mechanism where in an emergency a BEV driver can contact the individual blocking the space for access. It is in no way unfair, and it's not bigotry - there is no question, statistically, that PHEVs minimize the potential for EV-driven miles facilitated by any given charging station, and there is no question that it is a far greater annoyance for a BEV to be blocked by a PHEV than it is for a PHEV to be blocked by a BEV.

 

[fromport]

This happened recently here in Camarillo at the outlet mall

Volt blocking an EVGO quickcharger spot that it can not use

It is only Chademo and Combo charging there. No L2.
And yet I see Volts, Prius, Cmax, and Tesla parked there.
Might as well leave an electric car parked in front of a gas pump for hours! ;-)

PHEV do not share the concern as much because the charging equipment is optional while they are out. Someone with a full electric vehicle is screwed if a car is parked there and the equipment can't be utilized. This really gets me going and I try to pretend like it doesn't, but believe me it's frustrating to see it happening more often. In the case of the attached photo, that volt has no business even being in that spot. Only fast chargers are at this location, so now we have a machine that likely cost $50,000-$100,000 not being able to be used.

Not the first and not the last time I've seen this happen

 

[davewill]

What I suspect you meant to say is that the limited range of a PHEV makes it less likely that a vehicle can make a conventional trip without invoking the ICE, whereas by their design a RAV4 EV or Tesla is required to make it home on electricity, meaning that letting the PHEV charge is a more efficient use of the charger. This is an absurd statement.

I meant exactly what I said. Most of the time, a Tesla or a RAV4 at the local mall doesn't need a charge. Stop putting words in my mouth.

.... In places with limited charging stations, a certain number should be reserved for BEVs, or provide a mechanism where in an emergency a BEV driver can contact the individual blocking the space for access. ...

We'll have to agree to disagree. You simply refuse to see that many EV drivers use charging stations as rudely as any PHEV driver.

It is, and will to remain first-come, first-served. BEVs can't and won't be given special privileges. We can't base it on NEED, because there's no way to to be sure who is more "needy" in any specific circumstance, so I just throw that argument right out the window.

 

[miimura]

FREE distorts the marketplace. Anywhere there are multiple free charging stations, there should be at least one paid charging station. Most likely, the paid one will be available for BEV users that NEED to use it. Any time I NEED public charging, I have no problem paying a significant multiple (like 2X to 5X) of my home charging cost - mostly because it is such a tiny percentage of my total charging cost.

 

[miimura]

This happened recently here in Camarillo at the outlet mall

Volt blocking an EVGO quickcharger spot that it can not use

It is only Chademo and Combo charging there. No L2.
And yet I see Volts, Prius, Cmax, and Tesla parked there.
Might as well leave an electric car parked in front of a gas pump for hours! ;-)

It's interesting that NRG decided to put 3 L2 stations at a different location at the same shopping center. I like that approach. Sadly, it appears from Plugshare comments that they have been offline a lot recently.