Another Dead RAV4 EV

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Rav4EV4me

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2016
Messages
8
Location
Boston, MA
Starting a new post here, which is essentially a continuation of my post in the Off-Topic area and will hopefully answer a few question asked by alflash.

Let me first explain the run-up to the problem.

I was driving the car running errands one day. When I came out from one of the stores to move on to the next errand, I was able to start the car, however, the car would not go into drive or reverse. Moreover, the “Check EV System” message appeared on the console. I did not notice any different sounds or other signals prior to that that would have indicated a problem.

For the next couple hours, I was able to turn the ignition on and off successfully until the car was towed to the dealer that night.

Let me also add that this car does NOT have any special additions or modifications like the JdeMO fast-charging upgrade. It is effectively stock.

Once the car was at the dealer, there was no issue turning the car on and rolling it in neutral to get it off the flatbed truck. Before leaving the dealer, we tried to move the car one more time to position more completely in a parking space. Before I was able to turn the car back off, the console lights flashed on and off several times, then began flickering as if the voltage was low. At that point, I was unable to power the car off. After several minutes and attempts, I had to leave the car and go home. Effectively, the car was still on. At this point, the dealer was closed and I would pick up the issue in the morning.

I explained to the dealer what had been going on, including the flickering. While I am reasonably certain the 12v battery was not the problem, The next few paragraphs will go on to document what the Toyota mechanic wrote on my service form.

Verified vehicle is completely dead, does not power up at all. Connected jump pack and vehicle powered up. 12v battery is dead. Connected Techstream and found stored code P312F Electric Propulsion Control Module. Vehicle will not start and code will not clear. Vehicle has a second OBD2 connector in the left rear of the vehicle for the Tesla side of the system. We need to check the codes on the Tesla side. This requires downloading the Tesla Software off TIS and connecting to rear OBD2 using Tesla Integration Cable. We know the 12v battery is dead, my thinking is that there are codes stored on the Tesla side from the dead 12v battery that need to be cleared for the P312F to clear and allow Ready On. The codes may be just a result of the dead battery or there may be a larger issue.

Now keep in mind, I had explained to them that the battery was fine until the point of the problem manifesting itself the prior day. However, they seemed to have been fixed on the 12v battery being the problem, not a symptom. The technician continued.

Either way, we need to start by assessing the Tesla side and seeing what we find. Cable was brought to us and, and new 12v battery installed. P312F will not clear on Toyota side. Connected to Tesla side of vehicle and ran “Alert History Log” for the last 2 weeks. All alerts have been resolved besides BMS f061 HV Battery 12V Power Supply Problem Detected, which reads as ‘ongoing’. Updated to TAS case. TAS agent stated to proceed with troubleshooting chart of BMS f061 Tesla code which consists of checking all power grounds to EV Battery ECU. Once testing was completed TAS agent stated to call back and follow up with results. Accessing the connector needed for testing, which is located on the EV Battery requires removing battery shields beneath vehicle to perform pinout checks. At this point now will probably need to get the vehicle moved into the shop and onto a lift to be able to deal with these shields and gain access.

Obviously, they had left it parked where I had towed it and were doing their diagnostics outside. Finally the technician wrote:

Hopefully customer is aware that this is a rare vehicle with both Toyota and Tesla equipment and diagnostic tools/reference materials so it is taking some time to sort through it all between waiting for cable and multiple calls to TAS, etc as well as the learning curve of the Tesla diagnostic equipment. Proceeded through electrical pinout tests for BMS f061 code as outlined in repair manual. Testing found short to ground on battery voltage supply side of harness. With fuse removed there is no longer any short on harness/EV Battery ECU side. Short remains on power supply side of battery. Fuse is fed from DC/DC Converter. Disconnected harness at DC/DC Converter and short circuit no longer present. Short is internal to DC/DC Converter. TAS agent stated there are other known instances of BMS f061 code and failure to Ready On caused by internal short of DC/DC Converter, replacement recommended. Part is on backorder, no eta.

Let me add that, yes, I was fully aware of the rareness of this car before purchase. While I owned it, I deliberately took it in for “maintenance” several times so there would be a record of my car on file with the dealer. While they never performed any “service” to the HV Battery, the car wasn’t that “new” to them.

So, the above language is the notation from the dealer. Following that series of service actions, I towed the car back home, as the dealer did not want the car at the dealership while waiting for the backordered, “no eta” part. Nor did I. That was in May 2023. The car has been in my driveway ever since. I keep the 12v battery on the bench to prevent the car from killing it. I have moved it once and know that I can pop the battery in and shift it into neutral without issue. I have not tried charging the car.

With everything mentioned above. Any other insights on what I can do from here? Thanks.
 
It sounds like the dealership has likely followed instructions and properly diagnosed a problem with the output of the DC-DC converter. I don't think anyone has ever had this problem before, but that doesn't mean it isn't a correct diagnosis.

The next step should be to see if the car behaves properly (i.e. goes into READY and drives) with the DC-DC harness disconnected, and the 12V battery fully charged (or ideally replaced, since the extended discharge likely didn't help its lifespan). A low 12V supply has been known to wreck havoc with the modules in this car.

Assuming that things are OK with the DC-DC disconnected, then the next step would probably be to pick up a Model S DC-DC to swap with yours.
 
Starting a new post here, which is essentially a continuation of my post in the Off-Topic area and will hopefully answer a few question asked by alflash.

Let me first explain the run-up to the problem.

I was driving the car running errands one day. When I came out from one of the stores to move on to the next errand, I was able to start the car, however, the car would not go into drive or reverse. Moreover, the “Check EV System” message appeared on the console. I did not notice any different sounds or other signals prior to that that would have indicated a problem.

For the next couple hours, I was able to turn the ignition on and off successfully until the car was towed to the dealer that night.

Let me also add that this car does NOT have any special additions or modifications like the JdeMO fast-charging upgrade. It is effectively stock.

Once the car was at the dealer, there was no issue turning the car on and rolling it in neutral to get it off the flatbed truck. Before leaving the dealer, we tried to move the car one more time to position more completely in a parking space. Before I was able to turn the car back off, the console lights flashed on and off several times, then began flickering as if the voltage was low. At that point, I was unable to power the car off. After several minutes and attempts, I had to leave the car and go home. Effectively, the car was still on. At this point, the dealer was closed and I would pick up the issue in the morning.

I explained to the dealer what had been going on, including the flickering. While I am reasonably certain the 12v battery was not the problem, The next few paragraphs will go on to document what the Toyota mechanic wrote on my service form.



Now keep in mind, I had explained to them that the battery was fine until the point of the problem manifesting itself the prior day. However, they seemed to have been fixed on the 12v battery being the problem, not a symptom. The technician continued.



Obviously, they had left it parked where I had towed it and were doing their diagnostics outside. Finally the technician wrote:



Let me add that, yes, I was fully aware of the rareness of this car before purchase. While I owned it, I deliberately took it in for “maintenance” several times so there would be a record of my car on file with the dealer. While they never performed any “service” to the HV Battery, the car wasn’t that “new” to them.

So, the above language is the notation from the dealer. Following that series of service actions, I towed the car back home, as the dealer did not want the car at the dealership while waiting for the backordered, “no eta” part. Nor did I. That was in May 2023. The car has been in my driveway ever since. I keep the 12v battery on the bench to prevent the car from killing it. I have moved it once and know that I can pop the battery in and shift it into neutral without issue. I have not tried charging the car.

With everything mentioned above. Any other insights on what I can do from here? Thanks.
I re-read both of your messages and I am completely perplexed.
In Who still owns a RAV4 EV? you wrote that "...local Toyota dealer has determined that the electric vehicle converter assembly (G9270-0R011) is bad and needs replacement".
Although in topic Another Dead RAV4 EV it is indicated that the fault code BMS_f061 was read, which means “Battery Control ECU Power Supply Problem”.
I have “cognitive dissonance” and the question is what exactly is wrong with your car???
And the second question is whether these checks were carried out?
https://alflash.com.ua/2019/to_rav4ev/bms_f061.pngand what are their results?

p.s. This story of yours is very similar to this attempt to deceive a client
https://www.myrav4ev.com/threads/20...-will-be-13k-vehicle-will-be-total-loss.2567/
 
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OP, you were fortunate to get that much verbiage from the tech; that's not typical. And it was interesting to hear that TAS advised that "they'd seen this before for BMS_f061". Tesla only used this GEN1 DC-DC Converter from SOP in 2012 through about Jan2014, when they moved to a newer version (not compatible) with the internal HV fuses moved to a separate box.

I agree with Matt: pick up an old Model S DC-DC Converter and swap it out. It's right on top of the engine stack, and is relatively easy to R&R. Take off the big plastic cover (five screws) and it's right there.

IMG_4904-2.jpg

From there, two 10mm coolant hoses need to be removed, and a half-dozen or so electrical connectors, only one of which is HV. Do be gentle with the connectors, as the dealer broke the lock tab on one of mine during one of the two times I had it in for warranty service (they had to R&R this twice on mine: once for LDU replacement, once for heater (and DC-DC) replacement). Nice that the dealer broke the harness connector and couldn't be bothered to order a replacement . . . which I did myself).

[later]
Oh, I just recalled that I removed the two coolant reservoirs, because I was servicing my OBC, which is underneath everything you see above. The bracket that holds up the DC-DC has a hose retainer on the driver side through which a pink coolant hose runs, and if you try to remove the DC-DC on its bracket, that retainer (or the hose that runs through it) has to be removed. IDK if the DC-DC can be removed without its support bracket. So, you may have more coolant mess than I implied above.

IMG_4904-3.jpg

IMG_4950-2b.jpg

Matt, do you know if the firmware of a Model S DC-DC has to be updated via TPD, in order to interoperate with the RAV4 EV?

[Matt has some experience with this]

If your goal is to get this repair covered under a warranty, then obtaining a used part won't achieve that: the dealer will flat refuse to install a used part from a Tesla. But if your goal is to get it on the road, this could be an afternoon of work and maybe $300-1000 (depending on whether you need to have the firmware updated via Vlad or Matt or whomever; depending on if you pay someone else to do the physical R&R; depending on the price of the used DC-DC you buy; depending on if/how you clear the BMS code on the Tesla side after R&R)
 
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I am confused too, that is why I have come here to see if I can get some clarification, if possible. But yes, per the recommendation of the TAS agent, "There are other known instances of BMS f061 and failure to Ready On caused by internal short of DC/DC Converter, replacement recommended." I know Toyota will not look to go further than just replacing it and seeing what happens.

In the last two days I have discovered a local repair shop, ECO Auto, that specializes in the repair of electric vehicles. They are familiar with the relationship between Toyota and Tesla and are willing to have a look at it to see if they can come up with a solution that doesn't just blindly involve replacing a part that doesn't need replacement, (i.e. - repair/rebuild if possible), and/or searching for parts from a wreck that could have a salvageable piece. This is my first contact with the establishment so I cannot say whether they are good or bad, however they sound knowledgeable based on my initial discussions. While this doesn't speak to their repair ability, a friend recommended them, as they recently traded in an old vehicle and purchased another used electric vehicle from them and were completely pleased with their customer service. I plan to get it over there on Jan 9. Will keep you posted.
 
OP, you were fortunate to get that much verbiage from the tech; that's not typical. And it was interesting to hear that TAS advised that "they'd seen this before for BMS_f061". Tesla only used this GEN1 DC-DC Converter from SOP in 2012 through about Jan2014, when they moved to a newer version (not compatible) with the internal HV fuses moved to a separate box.

I agree with Matt: pick up an old Model S DC-DC Converter and swap it out. It's right on top of the engine stack, and is relatively easy to R&R. Take off the big plastic cover (five screws) and it's right there.

View attachment 25

From there, two 10mm coolant hoses need to be removed, and a half-dozen or so electrical connectors, only one of which is HV. Do be gentle with the connectors, as the dealer broke the lock tab on one of mine during one of the two times I had it in for warranty service (they had to R&R this twice on mine: once for LDU replacement, once for heater (and DC-DC) replacement). Nice that the dealer broke the harness connector and couldn't be bothered to order a replacement . . . which I did myself).

[later]
Oh, I just recalled that I removed the two coolant reservoirs, because I was servicing my OBC, which is underneath everything you see above. The bracket that holds up the DC-DC has a hose retainer on the driver side through which a pink coolant hose runs, and if you try to remove the DC-DC on its bracket, that retainer (or the hose that runs through it) has to be removed. IDK if the DC-DC can be removed without its support bracket. So, you may have more coolant mess than I implied above.

View attachment 26

View attachment 27

Matt, do you know if the firmware of a Model S DC-DC has to be updated via TPD, in order to interoperate with the RAV4 EV?

[Matt has some experience with this]

If your goal is to get this repair covered under a warranty, then obtaining a used part won't achieve that: the dealer will flat refuse to install a used part from a Tesla. But if your goal is to get it on the road, this could be an afternoon of work and maybe $300-1000 (depending on whether you need to have the firmware updated via Vlad or Matt or whomever; depending on if you pay someone else to do the physical R&R; depending on the price of the used DC-DC you buy; depending on if/how you clear the BMS code on the Tesla side after R&R)
Thanks Al for the thorough teardown instructions. This sounds like something I could do and have someone do the flash, as needed. I posted some comments about a repair shop I plan to take it to next week. I think I will still take it there armed with some of the insight from here and see where it goes. Particularly because I don't have an easy space to work on it this time of year that is protected from the cold weather and elements.

While I would love to get my car repaired under warranty, it has been out of commission for eight months already, and another proposed nine months ahead. I have no reasonable expectation that it will be fixed by Toyota sooner, and feel it more likely it will take longer. So having an undriveable car sitting in my driveway for 18-24 months is dumb on my part. I need to find a solution now and know I'm going to have to pay for it. :(
 
Let's see what Matt says about firmware; if a Model S DC-DC needs to be flashed, Matt might offer to do that for you; I could probably do it, and Vlad can definitely do it remotely (though you'd have to acquire add'l hardware). There are options nowadays other than only Toyota and QCP.

Now that you've posted a couple of times, you should be able to edit your profile to add your location; this will be very helpful to others in future convos, as "where are you located" is a common question.
 
I actually picked up a Model S gen 1 DC-DC a few months ago to answer this exact question: is it a direct swap for the RAV4, or does the firmware need to be updated. With work and holiday travel, I haven't had a chance to perform this swap/test yet. I'm traveling yet again starting Sunday, so it may be a few weeks before I can answer the question.

In the meantime, I offer my original suggestion: disconnect the heavy cable going to the red stud on the DC-DC (12V output) and tape it up. The low voltage connector just above the red stud will need to stay connected, to keep the Tesla interlock circuit happy. If the dealership did correctly diagnose there being a short internal to the DC-DC, and if you have a fully charged (>12.5V) battery, and if there are no other faults, then I would expect the car to go into READY mode and be able to drive. Do this test and let us know what happens.
 
Dear Sirs, can someone show in this list* at least a mention of the DC/DC Converter having software that can or should be updated???
*
https://alflash.com.ua/2019/to_rav4ev/firmware_.png
Update.

As for me, in addition to other functions, this is a regular high-voltage voltage converter into a voltage of 13.5 or 14.5 volts, depending on the mode, and and with output current of up to a couple of hundred amperes.
https://alflash.com.ua/2019/to_rav4ev/dc_dc_convert.jpg
p.s. Can anyone explain why a difficult converter replacement is being considered if even a basic check of the HV BATT Fuse in No2 Motor Compartment Room Relay Block Assembly has not been done/there are no results?
Is the current condition of the auxiliary battery known?
 
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I actually picked up a Model S gen 1 DC-DC a few months ago to answer this exact question: is it a direct swap for the RAV4, or does the firmware need to be updated. With work and holiday travel, I haven't had a chance to perform this swap/test yet. I'm traveling yet again starting Sunday, so it may be a few weeks before I can answer the question.
....
I would be very interested in remote participation or at least presence in the collection and write of data and their subsequent comparison at the “native” and after installing the donor converter.
For example, data from such sets of parameters as Hardware Configuration, DC-DC Converter, Battery Status, Charger, Thermal Controller in IGN ON, Ready, Charge ad IGN OFF modes.
 
Dear Sirs, can someone show in this list* at least a mention of the DC/DC Converter having software that can or should be updated???
*
https://alflash.com.ua/2019/to_rav4ev/firmware_.png
Update.

As for me, in addition to other functions, this is a regular high-voltage voltage converter into a voltage of 13.5 or 14.5 volts, depending on the mode, and and with output current of up to a couple of hundred amperes.
https://alflash.com.ua/2019/to_rav4ev/dc_dc_convert.jpg
p.s. Can anyone explain why a difficult converter replacement is being considered if even a basic check of the HV BATT Fuse in No2 Motor Compartment Room Relay Block Assembly has not been done/there are no results?
Is the current condition of the auxiliary battery known?
The 12v battery was in good shape, but it was replaced anyways. With the new battery, the problem persists.
 
Just thought I add our recent experience with a 2012 Rav we've owned now for 80K total miles. The car did not start up properly and posted SRS Airbag Failure on screen. I checked the 12v battery which was replaced in 2016 it was at 8Vdc. I replaced it with another group 35 from Costco and the error message cleared and car works fine again. The only other problem this car has had was at 52K miles the speed sensor died and left car in road and it had to be towed. I purchased a used speed sensor from Tony at Chargepower and replaced it.

Ours has all original stuff works fine and goes still charges to well over 100miles without the use of extended charge which we have never used. Thought about getting a Y but we love the Rav and it does everything we need it for, we also have a 2013 S which gets us out on longer trips.
 
I replaced it with another group 35 from Costco and the error message cleared and car works fine again.
I'm on year six of the first 12v battery I replaced in 2017. 70k miles on it. I haven't heard of anyone else getting that kind of service life from more typical 12v batteries in the RAV4 EV. I wouldn't touch a Bosch AGM. I used to like and sell Interstate batteries for automotive applications, but since we own three Toyotas that can all use the same size, I just standardized on that one Odyssey model.

Also have 70k on the Michelins I installed at 50k, the week after I bought the car. They'll be good for a couple more years as well.

Sometimes, you get what you pay for. While Michelin and Odyssey are both expensive brands, the quality really is there.
 
The costco group 35 interstate battery is perfect for the RAV and very robust. We just got 8 years out of ours but I also monitor it closely and sometimes use a maintainer on it if the car is parked for a length of time. I expect the new one to last for awhile. Our 2013 Model S takes the Gruber Model S AGM battery but needs replacing every 2 or 3 years it seems, its an AGM of which I'm not a fan the Lead Acid batteries seem more robust than the AGMs.
 
Thanks Al for the thorough teardown instructions. This sounds like something I could do and have someone do the flash, as needed. I posted some comments about a repair shop I plan to take it to next week. I think I will still take it there armed with some of the insight from here and see where it goes. Particularly because I don't have an easy space to work on it this time of year that is protected from the cold weather and elements.

While I would love to get my car repaired under warranty, it has been out of commission for eight months already, and another proposed nine months ahead. I have no reasonable expectation that it will be fixed by Toyota sooner, and feel it more likely it will take longer. So having an undriveable car sitting in my driveway for 18-24 months is dumb on my part. I need to find a solution now and know I'm going to have to pay for it. :(
UPDATE:
As you may recall, my car has now been out of commission going on 1 year; this very week. I brought the car over to Eco Auto for the repair work. They successfully removed the DC-DC Converter and sent it to a company in Arizona for repair. The company in Arizona did find some blown capacitors that were replaced, however during diagnostic tests after rebuild, it went "poof". As a result, they sent a replace Tesla DC-DC converter back to Eco Auto. Eco is showing that the new DC-DC Converter is working, however, the car does not recognize it.

Can someone point me to possible paths for reprogramming so as the new Tesla Converter will work in the Rav4? Thanks.
 
It may be possible to use TPD to flash the Tesla DC-DC Converter for use with the RAV4. Others will have to chime in on this, as I just do not use TPD to that extent (so far). If it can't be done, the next least expensive path would be a logic board swap, moving your old logic board from your DC-DC to a Tesla Model S donor. This has and can be done for the OBC, and is theoretically possible for the DC-DC, but I've not heard of anyone attempting it. You'd want to get your original DC-DC back from the Arizona firm for sure.

[later: ddoxey confirms that no flashing of DC-DC Converter is necessary, and that an unmodified Tesla Model S DC-DC of the same vintage will operate as a replacement.]

Next, used DC-DC Converters from RAV4 EVs can be had, but that's going to be more expensive.

Lastly, I think that one can still purchase brand-new DC-DC Converters via Toyota? The most expensive option.
 
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UPDATE:
... Can someone point me to possible paths for reprogramming so as the new Tesla Converter will work in the Rav4? Thanks.
Please clarify. The reason that you assume the possibility and necessity of reprogramming the car converter?
Excuse me, but when reprogramming and in the update.log file, DC-DC Converter is not even mentioned https://alflash.com.ua/2019/to_rav4ev/08a.jpg
08a.jpg

I guess someone is misleading you :(

Please explain what this text “Eco is showing that the new DC-DC Converter is working, however, the car does not recognize it” means?
What do they mean by the concept of "recognition", how it should manifest itself.
If the converter is working, then in Ready mode its output voltage is approximately 14.5V, and in Charge mode it is 13.5V.
 
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