RavCharge, a solution to charge timer and entune woes

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The only other 3rd party app I know of that does essentially the same thing as RavCharge is called "GreenCharge". It is free for the iPhone, but the RAV4 EV is not supported, nor is the Chevy Volt. These are the only EVs I happen to own, so I am not a user of this app. It currently only supports the PiP, Leaf and Focus (beta). Apparently, once upon a time it did support the Volt, but that was removed due to some kind of beef with GM over tethering onto their native app called RemoteLink (aka OnStar). RemoteLink is an iPhone app that supports all late model GM vehicles and is also free. There are many more native car company apps similar in nature, also free, including Toyota's EnTunes. With the exception of the latter, none support the RAV4 EV at all, or in the case of Entunes, as well as RavCharge, which is the best news we've all had here since the car was first introduced little over a year ago.

The "cost" for use of RavCharge really boils down to what you think is fair based on all "your" costs.

I can tell you I have seen other 3rd party developers that charge as little as $2/month for their subscription based iPhone apps, to cover the overhead costs incurred on "their" server(s). To make a subscription more attractive over the long term, one such app I know of, developed by a fellow member here, (founder of Ndili Technologies), used by Enphase based PV Solar Systems, charges a flat fee of $100 for essentially unlimited use (i.e. 10 years). You can also subscribe for 3 or 6 months for $6 or $12 respectively.

You could follow a similar pricing model. I would certainly consider that fair to subscribe all my mobile devices and home computers to use RavCharger as a browser based webapp. If you wanted more, I think you might want to make this into a full blown iPhone/Android app and possibly add (or plan to add) some additional useful features and benefits.

Another alternative is to reach out to another 3rd party developer, like the company that produced "GreenCharge" and propose they incorporate RavCharge's functionality into their app, using their servers. You could "hire" yourself out to them as a consultant, or sell them the rights to your app, or make a royalty agreement with them, or some combination. Greencharge already supports Toyota's PiP (but apparently not all models) and therefore some form of Entunes. It does not support the RAV4 EV, and I know of no immediate plans for it to be supported in the future. However, Ravcharge may appeal to them to broaden their customer base. Their app is free, so they must be imbedding advertising because all their other apps are free as well (i.e. ReCargo, PlugShare and PluginCars.com, all available from Apple in the iTunes App Store). If interested, this developer has offices in Menlo Park and Los Angeles. Their email address is [email protected], and phone no. is 310-450-3333.

Fwiw, I have no affiliation with any of the companies mentioned above.
 
I have found the app interesting and thank you for your work. I generally pay for things like this but have to note that my use of your app would be pretty limited.

I have no interest in a charging timer. For the rare occasions I need the vehicle location I could just use Entunes.

But, for limited parts of the year (the height of the summer and 3 months in the winter), I would like to use remote climate control.

So, the amount I would pay has to be limited as well. But, I do not want to stifle your innovation and just might pay whatever you decide in hopes of bigger and better things to come.

Gene
 
miimura said:
I would send you $30-$50 by Paypal for a year of service. No e-commerce site necessary. You could just set up a special e-mail and Paypal account to receive the money and have people put their Entune e-mail in the payment note so you can connect it with the right account.
Miimura's thoughts match pretty well what I was thinking. I'm going to go with $39, and I've set up a Paypal account through [email protected]. What I meant by setting up a "payment system" is I'll probably be sticking a Paypal button on the default screen along with a reminder about how many days are left in your 14 day trial. Plus I intend to create an administrative area for myself that I can use from my phone to quickly mark accounts as paid as I receive Paypal notifications.

Gene, I can see how there's not as much value for you if you don't use the timer functionality, but I do think the CC timer, and automating repeated attempts at starting the CC provide a lot of value on their own, and make up for some big shortcomings in the Entune app. Back when I drove my Leaf I used the CC timer feature of its app quite a bit, so I was very disappointed when the Rav's Entune app didn't have a similar feature. I also plan on adding new CC features, including automating the process of running CC for longer than just 15 minutes, and running CC until a desired cabin temperature is reached. If you have any suggestions of your own on how to improve CC functionality I'd be glad to hear them.

Also, even if you don't use a charging timer now, you might want to consider it, even if you don't have time-of-use electricity billing. Since we know that lithium batteries don't like to sit with a high SOC for long periods, it may be better for your battery not to charge up until just before you plan to drive. I also have ideas about adding some analytic features that would only work if you use the charge timer, such as recording your rate of charge and comparing it over time. If your rate of charge - as measured by the change in %SOC over time - appears to be growing over time (assuming the same wall power is available) - that could serve as a useful measure of battery degradation. Of course if you're one of the lucky ones that can reliably charge for free at work then I can definitely see not using a timer.

Dsinned, thanks for all the ideas about seeking alternative sources of revenue, but as I mentioned before I'm not excited about such a course. I've used all of Xatori's (parent of plugshare/recargo/greencharge) apps, and they're great, but they're going for a totally different space. They're VC-backed and seem to be following the facebook-like course of "just get a lot of users now, worry about revenue later." Since getting a lot of users is an impossibility for RavCharge, that's just not an option. And apps for other EVs don't face the same problem as we have with the Rav - that the onboard timer is unpredictable at best and simply doesn't work at other times. And Toyota has made it abundantly clear that they're not interested in investing in any improvements to their begrudgingly-made compliance car.

Thanks for the input everybody!
 
Joe, do you intend to charge $39 per year? Or, is this a "one time" fee?

Btw, one thing about RavCharge that could (or should?) be improved is the range displayed as calculated by RavCharge vs. calculated by Entunes (i.e. from the car itself). These tend to disagree even between Entunes and the GoM, because range is dependent on whether the CC was last set to Off or On (Norm or Eco HI or Eco LO), even though generally "off" while the car is turned off and parked. If, however, Entunes (or RavCharge) has commanded it to be On to pre-condition the car while parked, then Entune's range reflects the actual range with the CC operating, not off (while the car is still parked and turned off).

I believe, this apparent anomalous "mismatch" affects what Entunes sees as the actual range on the GoM as dependent upon the last setting of the CC. My point being, shouldn't this be reflected by RavCharge as well? If not, then estimated range prediction by RavCharge should be disclaimed by asserting the assumption that it only reflects the range that would result if the in-car CC setting was left Off. Which means it may tend to indicate a higher reading than what will be displayed on the GoM at the same point in time, if the opposite is true regarding the CC control setting. In other words it is important the user of RavCharge understands that, by default, the range estimate is based on the in-car CC set to OFF even if that is not actually the case!

Comments?
 
We have fixed-rate electricity where I Iive and it is fairly low cost so I don't foresee scheduled charging in my future.

Do you plan on adding MULTIPLE climate control timers?? This would be what I need. I do not work in the same location each day of the week and therefore my travel times vary. So, I need to pre-condition in my garage before I leave and then pre-condition at the client's location just before heading home. So, in my case, I need 4 timers. I can foresee other people needing more.

Also, in my case, the timers need to specify day-of-the-week plus time plus be recurring.

I would pay $39. Seems fair enough to me.
 
Dsinned said:
Joe, do you intend to charge $39 per year?
Per year.
Dsinned said:
Btw, one thing about RavCharge that could (or should?) be improved is the range displayed as calculated by RavCharge vs. calculated by Entunes (i.e. from the car itself).
The key distinction between the GOM/entune range and the RavCharge range is that the GOM range is backward-looking, using unknown assumptions, while the RavCharge range lets you make the assumptions and plan accordingly. This is why the RavCharge range is useful, while the GOM range isn't. How can you plan around a number when you don't know how efficiently you need to drive to match it? If you know you'll be using CC extensively for an upcoming drive, you can then alter your projected efficiency and hence RavCharge range accordingly. I recommend ignoring the GOM at all times and using tools like Tony's range chart in concert with RavCharge (or at the very least looking at how many bars you have) for a meaningful estimate of your range for any given drive.
 
eplantz said:
Do you plan on adding MULTIPLE climate control timers?? This would be what I need. I do not work in the same location each day of the week and therefore my travel times vary. So, I need to pre-condition in my garage before I leave and then pre-condition at the client's location just before heading home. So, in my case, I need 4 timers. I can foresee other people needing more.

Also, in my case, the timers need to specify day-of-the-week plus time plus be recurring.
This is definitely doable. Adding in a recurring CC timer is on my to-do list, and I can also add an optional check to make sure the car's plugged in first (just like the charging timer) if you only want to run the pre-climate when you're plugged in.
 
fooljoe said:
miimura said:
I would send you $30-$50 by Paypal for a year of service. No e-commerce site necessary. You could just set up a special e-mail and Paypal account to receive the money and have people put their Entune e-mail in the payment note so you can connect it with the right account.
Miimura's thoughts match pretty well what I was thinking. I'm going to go with $39, and I've set up a Paypal account through [email protected]. What I meant by setting up a "payment system" is I'll probably be sticking a Paypal button on the default screen along with a reminder about how many days are left in your 14 day trial. Plus I intend to create an administrative area for myself that I can use from my phone to quickly mark accounts as paid as I receive Paypal notifications.

please make sure you allow for a mechanism to tie a payment to the Entunes ID. My Paypal ID is NOT the same as my Entunes ID.
 
eplantz said:
please make sure you allow for a mechanism to tie a payment to the Entunes ID. My Paypal ID is NOT the same as my Entunes ID.
Will do. You can send a payment now and just include a note with your entune ID, and I'll handle it manually. I'm working on a method to automate the process from within the app, so if you prefer you can wait for that.
 
Again great web app! I'll sign up for the year at that price and then see how it goes from there.

One issue and one suggestion... my climate tab has been showing climate on for the last day or two. Obviously it hasn't been on continuously. It would also be nice to have some indication that your server received the climate on request. I've had a couple of occasions when I requested to turn the climate control on (and then put my phone to sleep) and not had it come on. If possible I was thinking the "start climate now" button would change to "connecting" when pressed and "starting" once your server receives and acknowledges the command.
 
Since it appears that Toyota may have finally fixed the 31st bug, I think the biggest value-add that you can provide with RavCharge is a Departure Timer that really works and is based on user entered Volt and Amp values. The RAV charges very predictably and I haven't a clue how Toyota botched the departure scheduling so badly. If you can see in the status data whether the car is set for Standard or Extended Charge, it should be very straight forward to calculate the proper starting time for a charging session to complete when desired.
 
Joe, I really appreciate what you're doing for everyone here, and hope not to appear ungrateful, but I thought you were going to set up a "one time" fee? $39 per year for something that TOYOTA should have implemented properly in the first place, almost seems like we have to pay a "penalty" just to keep our cars reliably charged. Perhaps with substantially more bells and whistles, like ECO Dashboard integration, Ravcharge could well be worth it at this price. However, in comparison to most other comparable mobile car apps, most of which are free, it seems a bit over priced for use on an annual basis.

It's too bad you could not have first conducted a "poll" here to get a consensus upon which to decide on a "fair" price. I realize you are fighting a losing battle with so few potential subscribers based on such a limited production EV, which unfortunately can't help but to raise the net cost per user.

Would you be open to us paying a higher, but heavily discounted, "one time" fee for lifetime use of Ravcharger?
 
yblaser said:
Again great web app! I'll sign up for the year at that price and then see how it goes from there.

One issue and one suggestion... my climate tab has been showing climate on for the last day or two. Obviously it hasn't been on continuously. It would also be nice to have some indication that your server received the climate on request. I've had a couple of occasions when I requested to turn the climate control on (and then put my phone to sleep) and not had it come on. If possible I was thinking the "start climate now" button would change to "connecting" when pressed and "starting" once your server receives and acknowledges the command.
That's weird about the climate on thing. I checked it out and your car was stuck in a weird state where it looks like it finished a pre-climate but never updated its status. I sent it a stop climate command and now it's cleared up. As far as the notifications, the button does indicate when the server receives the command, and if you keep RavCharge open you'll get a popup indicating when the climate actually starts (this may take a few minutes though). If that doesn't work you probably need to make sure you're using a javascript-enabled browser. I plan to give you the option to receive a notification email letting you know when a command succeeds or fails so you don't have to stick around in the app to find out.

You don't need to wait around for a notification from the app though - you'll be fine sending the command then putting your phone away. If you try to turn climate on and it doesn't happen, then that just means the command didn't succeed. Unfortunately Entune's climate control system seems to be a bit fickle (thankfully the start charge command is much more reliable). RavCharge helps tremendously with this by resending the CC start command 4-5 times if it doesn't take, but sometimes the car just won't do it, even after repeated attempts.
 
miimura said:
Since it appears that Toyota may have finally fixed the 31st bug, I think the biggest value-add that you can provide with RavCharge is a Departure Timer that really works and is based on user entered Volt and Amp values. The RAV charges very predictably and I haven't a clue how Toyota botched the departure scheduling so badly. If you can see in the status data whether the car is set for Standard or Extended Charge, it should be very straight forward to calculate the proper starting time for a charging session to complete when desired.
Such a departure timer has been on the to-do list since day one. That's great news if Toyota has finally fixed the 31st bug, but that was really just one small thing out of a ton of problems RavCharge solves already. When you think about it, the 31st bug is really the least significant of the onboard timer's shortcomings, because at least it was a known issue that could be planned around. Unpredictable charge start times and seemingly randomly skipped charges (sometimes after charging on 120v, sometimes still unexplained) remain.
 
Dsinned said:
Would you be open to us paying a higher, but heavily discounted, "one time" fee for lifetime use of Ravcharger?
No, I think I've explained before why I don't like this idea, but to reiterate: A one time fee works great for hardware, or for a self-contained app that I can just hand over to you, but RavCharge is a service that runs on servers I maintain, and so requires recurring expenses (and a big ongoing time commitment on my part) to maintain. I want to reserve the right to shut the whole thing down if my expenses get too high, or if not enough people are interested, etc. If I sell you lifetime use then I've committed myself to a lifetime of indentured servitude for perhaps nothing more than a few hundred bucks!

If you think $39/yr is too much for a service that gives you something that Toyota should've already given you, then why do you not think twice about spending $1000+ for an EVSE that you basically have to buy? Toyota really should've given us an EVSE with our cars that's actually usable, like Tesla and some other EV makers do.
 
fooljoe said:
As far as the notifications, the button does indicate when the server receives the command, and if you keep RavCharge open you'll get a popup indicating when the climate actually starts (this may take a few minutes though).
Thanks. I may be missing something but I guess I don't understand how the button indicates whether the server received the command or not. I can load the page, turn my internet off, press the climate start button, and it still says starting. I understand I get the pop up when the climate actually starts after a couple of minutes, but I'm looking for indication that my phone actually sent the command successfully to the RavCharge server. BTW, I am using chrome on android.
 
yblaser said:
Thanks. I may be missing something but I guess I don't understand how the button indicates whether the server received the command or not. I can load the page, turn my internet off, press the climate start button, and it still says starting. I understand I get the pop up when the climate actually starts after a couple of minutes, but I'm looking for indication that my phone actually sent the command successfully to the RavCharge server. BTW, I am using chrome on android.
Ok, I see what you mean. You're right that the javascript will change the button to 'starting' even if you no longer have an internet connection, but I think it's generally safe to assume that if you continue to have an internet connection the command will get through to the RavCharge servers very fast. I'll look into adding a 'command sent'-style message though.
 
fooljoe said:
Ok, I see what you mean. You're right that the javascript will change the button to 'starting' even if you no longer have an internet connection, but I think it's generally safe to assume that if you continue to have an internet connection the command will get through to the RavCharge servers very fast.
Thanks! My cellular internet connection is often very spotty in the building I work in. It also seems to freeze and take a while to re-establish even if the phone is reporting it has a cellular data connection, hence knowing that the RavCharge server received the request is helpful.
 
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