DC "level 3" charging Mod

[FarmerDan]

Has anyone attempted this yet? If I understand correctly, the battery should be able to take it, it already has the wires available but capped off.

I'd love to be able to fast charge this thing, kinda irks me that they didn't put it on board as if nobody would want it.

:ugeek:

 

[user 340]

I've been dreaming about such a mod. The lack of L3 charging is what caused me to hesitate in making a purchase (but I eventually succumbed). It would be nice if Tesla or Toyota offered this officially; I wonder if we could help make it happen if we delivered a letter with a few hundred signatures asking for L3. Barring that, it would be cool if a moonlighting Tesla engineer or 2 could provide some info, but I bet that would totally violate their employment contract.

 

[cwerdna]

What would you hook it up to?

Tesla Supercharger? Not even sure the hardware's there to do it and Tesla doesn't sell the connectors. Only the Model S can charge at those.

CHAdeMO? The connector's real expensive and there's bunch of protocols involved. OTOH, don't know the price of buying the specs for the standard.

FWIW, nobody's created an adapter so that Model S owners can charge using CHAdeMO (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/16401-CHAdeMO-adapter-frustration). Tesla's openly said they would for the Japan market (since http://www.chademo.com/ says there are 1677 CHAdeMO chargers in Japan)... And, there are WAY more Model S cars floating around than there are Rav4 EVs. To do so for such a limited audience like the Rav4 EV would make it probably very expensive.

SAE J1772 CCS (aka Frankenplug)? There aren't any publicly accessible chargers nor any cars shipping with it yet.

 

[FarmerDan]

What would you hook it up to?

***yes, the CHAdeMO -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO. ***

Current compatability:
Tesla Model S (with OEM accessory)
Nissan LEAF
Mitsubishi i MiEV
Subaru R1e (prototype)
Protoscar Lampo (prototype)
Citroën C-ZERO
Peugeot iOn
2013 Zero Motorcycles S, DS, X, FX, XU Motorcycles (with OEM accessory)

There are several "blink" DC high power chargers near me. You can check them locally on http://www.plugshare.com and see that there are far more available than just the Tesla ones. Yeah, I doubt Tesla will open their fast charge stations to the public any time soon, but there are lots of other options. I thought there was a standard though, maybe it's still in development.

~5~10 years maybe there will be a standard and we'll get a frankenmod from someone smart enough to figure it out.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Yeah, I doubt Tesla will open their fast charge stations to the public any time soon, but there are lots of other options.

Never, unless the manufacturer pays Tesla a royalty of an estimated $2000 per car.

Then you'll get it for free!

 

[mhkp]

I'm new to this board and am very close (spend last night negotiating a lease with Toyota) to getting a RAV4EV. I walked away when i realized there was no Level 3 charging option. The salesperson said there was an adapter, but I felt he was confused with 240 vs 480. I confirmed online last night and could find no such adapter.

I feel this is a major flaw in the RAV but i know its a much better value than the LEAF otherwise, especially with the increased range.

My question to you all, is how much of a problem is the lack of Level 3 on a daily basis. I'm thinking of a 150 mile trip where i would have to stop for 3 hours to recharge the RAV to complete my trip; seems like a major disadvantage over stopping at a Level 3 for 20 minutes. Have you found this to be a problem?

The Level 2 charger needs 40amps to charge at the optimal rate. Have you found that public (not-home) chargers are mostly at the 40amp level, or below this level and cause charging to be extended?

I'm so confused why Toyota left of CHADemo off a car with such a large battery and input requirements.

 

[TonyWilliams]

My question to you all, is how much of a problem is the lack of Level 3 on a daily basis. I'm thinking of a 150 mile trip where i would have to stop for 3 hours to recharge the RAV to complete my trip; seems like a major disadvantage over stopping at a Level 3 for 20 minutes. Have you found this to be a problem?

The Level 2 charger needs 40amps to charge at the optimal rate. Have you found that public (not-home) chargers are mostly at the 40amp level, or below this level and cause charging to be extended?

I'm so confused why Toyota left of CHADemo off a car with such a large battery and input requirements.

I do regular 150 mile legs at 50-55mph steady on level terrain with no air conditioning or heating and no headwind component on a dry, hard surface roadway. The air conditioning is VERY effieicient, so if you need it, use it. Just put the temp really high (76-78F) on ECO HI. The AC pump will be running anyway to cool the battery on hot days. Just know that you'll need to drive closer to 50mph to make 150 miles. As your battery degrades over time, just know that you would have to slow down further or charge enroute to make 150 miles.

On cold days, this will require absolutely no heater (but seat heater ok) and slower speeds do to more dense air and possible rain, snow or slush on the roadway.

Public charging is typically 208 volt at 30 amps (6.2kW). There are a few Tesla Roadster charge stations with both 240 volt and 70 amps. Some require an expensive adapter. Of course, the Rav4 EV can only use 40 amps, but you can get the full 9.6kW -10kW on these.

RV parks are best, as the 50 amp service is always 240 volts. Just need a Tesla Model S or Roadster UMC with a J1772 and NEMA 14-50 plug.

Toyota is a member of CHAdeMO, but be aware of why this car is built. They don't want it to be too popular, as they only need to sell 2600 for model years 2012-2014; for 2015-2017, they will sell a hydrogen car. Toyota was quick to jump on board a petition to tell the EPA/CARB that "nobody wants electric cars, so please stop requiring us to sell them". That didn't work out well with Nissan and Tesla selling tens or thousands of them every year.

Toyota really wanted a repeat of 2002-2003, when all the manufacturers shut down their electric cars thanks to this same ploy.

So, in a nut shell, a CHAdeMO plug would cost a few dollars more per car, it might have made the car far more popular (bad!!!), they would not have been able to use only the existing gasoline door for the charger inlet ($$$; they didn't even remove the exhaust hangers$$$), Tesla isn't too keen on CHAdeMO (they have their own DC chargers called Superchargers), and they banged this car out in about two years which means no development time for CHAdeMO.

Heck, they didn't even test the J1772 inlet, as all the prototypes had Roadster plugs. My J1772 burnt out within a month of new, as have some Honda Fits that have tripped their temperature override (that we don't have, of course).

This car is an albatross for Toyota. The car they didn't want to make, don't want to sell, and don't want the EV technology they openly complain about.

Enjoy.

 

[doug401]

My question to you all, is how much of a problem is the lack of Level 3 on a daily basis. I'm thinking of a 150 mile trip where i would have to stop for 3 hours to recharge the RAV to complete my trip; seems like a major disadvantage over stopping at a Level 3 for 20 minutes. Have you found this to be a problem?

When I bought my Rav, and passed the Leaf on to the wife, I knew from my public charging experiences that L3 needed a lot of improvements before it can be relied on. The charging itself works great, but the "public side" of it is along way from being a time saver. Broken units, iced units, vandalized units, odd fee structure, and too few stations are just some of the problems. I bought the Rav to avoid L3, and it's worked out great.

A good example is this. If a Leaf and a Rav travel from Portland Or to Seattle Wa... 190 miles, who arrives first? Well... there are variables, but they should roughly arrive the same time. The Leaf "must" charge at 3 or more L3's. The Rav only needs any L2 for a few hours. So anything over 200 miles begins to favor the L3/Leaf combo. Don't get me wrong... I support public charging big time. But it's going to take many many years for it to become convenient, reliable, preferable.

My personal driving requirements, 12,000 miles a year, would only necessitate the need for L3 - 3 or 4 times a year. I would love the option... but really don't need it.

 

[mhkp]

Thanks to both of you for your thoughtful responses. Its very insightful and helpful.

Tony, thanks for educating me on what is really happening at Toyota. I know the Honda Fit is based on the hydrogen Clarity but had no idea that Toyota was going in the hydrogen direction. I did notice the gas tank mod on the Rav and though it strange. Now it makes sense.

I'm blown away by your 150 mile range. That is amazing and the main driver behind my interest in Rav4. I could never get 150 miles as my drive has moderate elevation changes in the LA area and a constant 55mph is unrealistic. Its either 65 on the freeway or variable freeway/roads. I'm hoping for 120 at best.

Doug,

thanks for the example of the 190 mile trip (Leaf vs Rav4). It makes a lot of sense. I also would need the Level 3 occasionally at best, but it would become a crutch not being able to use it as more Level 3 chargers are present. Here in soCal we have a growing number of them. Many are at Nissan dealership and are free. This is a huge selling point for me and the Nissan Leaf. Basically Nissan did the same thing Tesla did: created their own charging network available for Nissan owners.

Looking at it from a perspective that a) more level 3 chargers will be available, b) will be functional as they are serviced by Nissan, and c) remain free;the LEAF becomes a better option vs a RAV4. Again this only makes sense when considering longer distance trips. Short distance RAv4 is better. Which is why I wanted to get one, until I read the 'Check EV System' thread, because now I'm not going anywhere short or long distance.

 

[Ampster]

.................
I'm blown away by your 150 mile range. That is amazing and the main driver behind my interest in Rav4. I could never get 150 miles as my drive has moderate elevation changes in the LA area and a constant 55mph is unrealistic. Its either 65 on the freeway or variable freeway/roads. I'm hoping for 120 at best.

...... ..... Which is why I wanted to get one, until I read the 'Check EV System' thread, because now I'm not going anywhere short or long distance.

I regularly travel the LA freeways and have had a number of 120 mile journeys on extended charge.

I have had two instances of "Check EV System" but I have always been able to drive the car to the dealer and one time I drove it for several days that way before going to the dealer. I love the car so much I haven't let those bother me. In fact, after driving a Prius and a regular gas loaner I can't wait to get back in the RAV.

 

[fooljoe]

This is a huge selling point for me and the Nissan Leaf. Basically Nissan did the same thing Tesla did: created their own charging network available for Nissan owners.

Do NOT buy the Leaf over the Rav because of L3! If you're really going to be going outside of your range enough to make this a significant factor in your purchasing decision, then don't buy either car - get a Volt or a Model S.

What Nissan has done with L3s at dealers is a far cry from what Tesla's doing with their Superchargers. You must understand that there's a huge disconnect between Nissan corporate and independently-owned Nissan dealerships. Yeah, those dealerships will mostly have an L3, and probably a couple L2s, but good luck using them. I stopped by a Nissan dealer in my old Leaf to inquire about their new L3, and was subjected to a long rant from the general manager about his contempt for these "**** breathers" that come to his dealership and charge up their cars on his dime. He pointed out that the L3 will be much more "user friendly" if you bought your Leaf there (what good is that, since if you need L3, you're probably outside of your usual range and hence outside of where you'd probably buy your car?). And just about every time I drive by this dealership almost all their charging stations are ICEd, often with their own vehicles.

Anyway, hopefully you're getting the idea here. Of course some dealers are better than others, but this attitude is not uncommon. And non-dealership L3 is still rare/costly/unreliable. Don't expect any of this to change any time soon either, as the Chademo/SAE standards battle is still unsettled, holding a lot of possible infrastructure expansion in limbo.

Not to mention that L3 on a Leaf is not that fast, and does hell to its delicate non-thermally-managed battery. It takes 30 minutes to get up to 80% charge - ie about 55 miles on the freeway if you're lucky. A drive for 45 minutes / charge for 30 minutes (if you can actually find an available charger - it might be broken or in use or whatever) pattern just doesn't cut it. No way you'd want to go anywhere outside of a one-L3 radius (Nissan recommends against more than 1 L3 per day anyway), which makes the effective range about the same as the Rav's - except of course the Rav will get you there non-stop without all the fuss.

Anyway, sorry for the long rant, but hopefully you get the point. One last note: In 2 years of driving my Leaf, I've never once felt comfortable enough with the public infrastructure to rely on it for a trip outside of ~30 miles from home. 3 months in my Rav, and I've made 120 mile each way trips twice (OC to Palm Springs area), with no sweat whatsoever. I did need the L3 on the Leaf once, when I set the timer wrong and had to charge up to get to work (I need a 100% charge in the Leaf for my 50 mile round trip). By contrast, when the timer didn't fire in my Rav one time, I just went to work anyway and made it there and back no problem, even though I only started with a "normal" charge and a regular work commute the day before.

 

[dipper]

If L3 is a must, you might as well wait for the Kia Soul EV.

If not, Rav is the best right now outside of PHEV or Tesla. Merc might be an option soon. Smaller Tesla battery pack for 115 miles EPA range. So more miles per kwh. And gets the same 10kW charging capable as Rav.

I personally is rooting for the Mitsu Outlander PHEV to be successful.