Charging: Stopped by System Malfunction

[Improve_RAV4EV]

Gentleman, this is what I got so far:
- HV cables on the passenger side of the OBC are NOT connected, as asavage suggested;
- Orange HV connector under the seat is put back in place firmly;
- 12V Battery is connected back;
- 61.2 Ohm is observed between pins 6 & 14 at Tesla DLC3 #2 port in the back;
- Vehicle turned ON;
- Was able to set it to "N" (pressing the "P" button for a while does NOT release the brakes), (was able to select "N" without HV plug in place, just 12V connected);
- Refuses to go into "D" or "R" (HV & AC disconnected at OBC);
- At first, no errors at dash, just lit warning symbols;
- Error came back after connecting the 240V wall outlet;
- Installed & run the V1.1.46 SW with following results. Your deciphering/comments/recommendations would be highly appreciated:

 

[alflash]

1. This RAV4EV Tesla system need reflash* (https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2015/RCMN-15V143-4464.pdf)

as show in https://www.myrav4ev.com/threads/problematic-rav4ev-without-teslas-codes.2694/#post-32689

2.The HVIL (High Voltage Inter Lock) fault code is probably a consequence of an assembly error after repair. And you can easily deal with it too.

3.The SOH* value of HV Battery is of concern...

* https://alflash.com.ua/2019/to_rav4ev/1392data.jpg

 

[asavage]

- HV cables on the passenger side of the OBC are NOT connected, as asavage suggested;

I don't recall this, but stored codes could be read without activating the HV side; however, the Gateway doesn't like to store codes

- 61.2 Ohm is observed between pins 6 & 14 at Tesla DLC3 #2 port in the back;

I haven't heard of anyone checking that before . . . but, for this vintage of CAN bus, ~60Ω is correct.

- Was able to set it to "N" (pressing the "P" button for a while does NOT release the brakes) . . .

???
This isn't a Tesla car, there are no electrically-applied parking brakes. It's a typical drum-brake-inside-rotor Toyota design. Same as most Toyotas of the period. Heck, it's the same as my Sienna.

- Refuses to go into "D" or "R" (HV & AC disconnected at OBC);

- Error came back after connecting the 240V wall outlet

The HVIL error BMS_f008 will prevent the BMS from closing the HV contactors, so you won't get the HV bus activated. Aside from reading stored codes, even a simulated charging session can't be done without the charger completely connected (except, perhaps, the coolant loop. The OBC won't generate enough heat fast enough to do any harm, unless you try to pull 40A for minutes. I expect you can run a cold OBC without any coolant flow for a minute or two at 12A).

With an HVIL error, you don't get HV and you can't complete a charge test session, so find the cause of the HVIL problem first. If the HV Service Disconnect (under passenger seat) is fully seated, it's almost certainly one of these:

1) The yellow (with black tape) HVIL loopback wire on the pass. side of the OBC:



From Tesla GEN1 OBC Wiki:



2) The translucent plastic cover on the HV terminals on the DC-DC (the cover must be in place, even if the wires underneath aren't), or one of the HV KET connectors isn't fully plugged in on the DC-DC (Cabin Heater, A/C Compressor, Battery coolant heater).




And, yeah, the Gateway firmware mismatch GTW_d001 is odd. Some parts in the Tesla powertrain have different firmware revisions than other parts. TPD will fix that, but . . . how did it get that way? Did you replace some Tesla part? Or has it been working this way since you got it in 2020 . . . hmmm. Vlad had done a lot of work with these parts of various firmware revisions . . . Vlad, how does the car get into this state and still drive OK?

I would think that a "Check EV System" MIL would have been triggered for that situation.

---


The "Battery Return Information: Minimum State of Charge" field is a SOH?

 

[Improve_RAV4EV]

I don't recall this, but stored codes could be read without activating the HV side; however, the Gateway doesn't like to store codes

Sorry, actually was hokiematt who suggested it.
And for the sake of laziness, I jumped on it.

???
This isn't a Tesla car, there are no electrically-applied parking brakes. It's a typical drum-brake-inside-rotor Toyota design. Same as most Toyotas of the period. Heck, it's the same as my Sienna.

I think I should've said "wheel lock", not parking brake.

The HVIL error BMS_f008 will prevent the BMS from closing the HV contactors,

I hear the contactors when I turn the car ON (a rather loud click).
I think I also hear them again when I turn it OFF.

With an HVIL error, you don't get HV and you can't complete a charge test session, so find the cause of the HVIL problem first. If the HV Service Disconnect (under passenger seat) is fully seated,

It is fully seated. I heard the clicking sound of the plastic lip.

it's almost certainly one of these:

1) The yellow (with black tape) HVIL loopback wire on the pass. side of the OBC:

Loopback connector is in place.

2) The translucent plastic cover on the HV terminals on the DC-DC (the cover must be in place, even if the wires underneath aren't), or one of the HV KET connectors isn't fully plugged in on the DC-DC (Cabin Heater, A/C Compressor, Battery coolant heater).

HV cables are connected and the cover is on.
So are other cables you mentioned.
Ground cables to OBC and to Heater are connected too.
Please see attached pic.

And, yeah, the Gateway firmware mismatch GTW_d001 is odd. Some parts in the Tesla powertrain have different firmware revisions than other parts. TPD will fix that, but . . . how did it get that way? Did you replace some Tesla part? Or has it been working this way since you got it in 2020 . . . hmmm. Vlad had done a lot of work with these parts of various firmware revisions . . . Vlad, how does the car get into this state and still drive OK?

I would think that a "Check EV System" MIL would have been triggered for that situation.

I haven't replaced any parts at all. But, I have no idea about the previous owner. He didn’t give me the repair and service records because he didn’t want me to see them, as the car warranty had expired.

 

[Improve_RAV4EV]

BTW, I wanted to connect and check the TechStream results too, but I think I got the wrong SW: (TechStream_VirtualBox-7.0.2-154219-Win.exe)
Could anyone provide me a link to download it please?

 

[alflash]

BTW, I wanted to connect and check the TechStream results too, but I think I got the wrong SW: (TechStream_VirtualBox-7.0.2-154219-Win.exe)
Could anyone provide me a link to download it please?

1. Warning. This is a very bad and harmful version, hacked by the Chinese more than 10 years ago. To avoid bugs of previous versions, I recommend using the original and latest Techstream v.18.0.008.

2. Use/turn on subtitles with translation into the desired language.

 

[alflash]

... I haven't heard of anyone checking that before . . . but, for this vintage of CAN bus, ~60Ω is correct.

1. The CAN bus resistors of this line usually have a tolerance of >1% and the accuracy of Chinese DVOMs is not ideal.
2. The result of checking the resistance* of a working CAN bus and other examples.

And, yeah, the Gateway firmware mismatch GTW_d001 is odd. Some parts in the Tesla powertrain have different firmware revisions than other parts. TPD will fix that, but . . . how did it get that way? Did you replace some Tesla part? Or has it been working this way since you got it in 2020 . . . hmmm. Vlad had done a lot of work with these parts of various firmware revisions . . . Vlad, how does the car get into this state and still drive OK?

I would think that a "Check EV System" MIL would have been triggered for that situation.

1. Outdated calibrations never cause trouble codes. Updates are made according to TSB or Safety Recall (in this case for 2012-2014 Model Year RAV4 Electric Vehicles - link above).
"In the involved RAV4 EV’s, components in the Electric Vehicle raction Motor Assembly, which is part of the propulsion system, may cause the vehicle to shift to “neutral” due to a software issue. This ondition will also trigger a “Check EV System” warning message on the instrument panel and turn on a malfunction indicator lamp.
If the vehicle shifts to :neutral”, this will result in a complete loss of drive power, which can increase the risk of a crash".

2. I don't know that this vehicle has alert code (GTW_d001) about firmware mismatch.
An example of a Hardware Config mismatch, when in Gateway instead of this set https://forum.alflash.com.ua/download/file.php?id=3044

after replace BMS this https://forum.alflash.com.ua/download/file.php?id=3475

Note. Unfortunately, I don't have the file fwupdate-1.3.XXX-vhcid_9.pet

3. Updating to 1.3 101 is necessary to eliminate the risk of spontaneous unexpected transition of the car from D to N while driving.

The "Battery Return Information: Minimum State of Charge" field is a SOH?

This parameter is equivalent to SOC (for TPD v1.1.42)..
About the essence of Battery Return & Shipping https://alflash.com.ua/2019/to_rav4ev/bat_ret_46a.png

These panels list the information required for returning a battery to Tesla from the field for remanufacturing.
OK to Ship by Land: Needs to be set for safe shipping via land OK to Ship by Air: Needs to be set for safe shipping via air Refer to the HV Battery pre-transportation evaluation form for other requirements on afe shipping.
If the HV Battery on a vehicle needs to be replaced as per diagnosis and if “Ok to Ship” bit(s) are not set-
• If the contactors close: The HV battery should be discharged to a safe
shipping level on the vehicle by turning on all the accessories – Cabin Heater or A/C, Seat Heaters, High Beam etc
• If the contactors fail to close: Coordinate with Tesla Service to perform a manual discharge of the HV battery out of the vehicle

* For example, https://alflash.com.ua/2019/to_rav4ev/can_res.jpg

 

[asavage]

BTW, I wanted to connect and check the TechStream results too, but I think I got the wrong SW: (TechStream_VirtualBox-7.0.2-154219-Win.exe)
Could anyone provide me a link to download it please?

I posted a link in this thread to the International Harvester forum post where there's a further link to the the VM I'm using, which is named the same as yours.

It's not the TechStream program directly, it's a VirtualBox VM: it runs a virtualized instance of WinXP as an app under your existing Win OS, and when the VM boots, you can then run TechStream within the VM. Works for me, here. It's a bit slow (maybe all that trying to talk to China, IDK). I run it on a laptop that has no internet (or local network) access at all. You can pay for other cracked versions of TS if you look around a bit.

However, TS isn't going to tell you much about the Tesla powertrain.

 

[Improve_RAV4EV]

Today, I also connected the HV & AC lines on the side of the OBC.
* Coolant lines are still disconnected ! *

After reading alflash's comments, could the removed cap of the HV / JDeMo connection box (under the car) be the reason for the HVIL error (pics) ?
If so, I'll put the cap back on (without connecting JDeMo), connect HV plug under the seat, connect the 12V battery, and run the TPD test again.

 

[asavage]

Unless you've removed that tiny 1" square PCB board that's zip-tied in orange ties in your picture, leaving that cover off is OK (though dangerous to animals!). The PCB contains the HVIL resistors for that cover is a loop jumper and it was originally attached to the OEM cover, which was ditched when the JDemo "bathtub" was installed.

 

[asavage]

I hear the contactors when I turn the car ON (a rather loud click).
I think I also hear them again when I turn it OFF.

I don't understand how the BMS would close the HV contactors if there's a current BMS_f008 Alert, so I got nothin'.

 

[Improve_RAV4EV]

Gentlemen,

Pic-1 is the TPD screen after everything is connected. Almost identical to the first one.
On the top right, it says "UNABLE_TO_TEST_DTC". Why no DTC values? Because of the HVIL error?

I checked all the cable connections that I tempered with (except JDeMo, it's out). They are firmly connected.

12V Battery disconnected, I did the CAN tests shown in alflash's videos. They are all normal (pic-2).

Batteries connected, the car, again, only goes to "N". It beeps when I try "D" or "R".
All the warning icons on the dash are lit. Tried to clear them by cycling the power 4-8 times. Nothing changed.

- Could this HVIL be caused by a bad OBC?
- Would just a BMS_f008 fault cause the car not drive, nor charge?
- How a HV connection can go bad, while connected to 240V at night?

Thanks

 

[asavage]

Your screenshot shows BMS_CTRSET_OPEN, so the contactors are not closed. The LDU (motor) will shift from from P to N, but not D or R, correct?

Re-reading from page 1, you may have had an HVIL error all along. Yeah, it won't charge (because the contactors won't close), and it won't drive either. I know that you're hearing a clunk at startup/shutdown and thinking it's the contactors, but IDK how that can be, esp. if TPD is stating they're open in that screenshot.

HVIL may be your only issue.

There are a bunch of HVIL resistors and jumpers in the loop, but diagnosing that isn't terrible. The HVIL video that Vlad posted in post #46 shows the older TPD's "how to diagnose HVIL" section of the larger repair manual (TPD .46 doesn't have this documentation facility intact). While it may assume tools you may not have, tracking down which unit has an HVIL issue is straightforward, as long as it's not intermittent, and Vlad posted a picture of a set of parallel resistors that form one of the units' HVIL resistance.

Some units have internal resistors, and some units have only jumpers.

See this post, and about three posts above it shows a slashed HVIL loop internal to the DC-DC Converter (as an example).

Actually, reading the thread (about a cabin heater issue, that devolved into an HVIL issue) from here would probably be more useful, as we all posted a lot of great pics along with diagrams. And, Vlad posted TPD's entire diagnostic procedure summary in one place, which is even easier than reading it on his video above. Basically, you start by measuring part of the HVIL loop's resistance by testing at the harness logic connector at the DC-DC, and proceed from there to track down the part of the loop that's either open, out-of-spec, or shorted.

I'd ignore the DTCs screen and watch only the Alerts display for now.

---

Oh, and since your OBC is loose, that makes it easy to test its part of the HVIL loop at pins 3 & 9 on its logic connector (on the OBC here, not on the harness). It should read 60Ω.

[Sidebar: TTBOMK, it's a coincidence that Tesla chose 60Ω as a HVIL device resistance, and that 60Ω is also the typical CAN bus resistance (if both ends of a CAN bus are properly terminated with 120Ω resistors, which has been the case for OEM stuff I've checked, but not necessarily the case for DIY projects I've helped troubleshoot). Don't get CAN bus resistance confused with HVIL resistors, as they're unrelated.]

From the Wiki:

 

[Improve_RAV4EV]

This time I didn't hear any contactor sound when I hit the ON/OFF button. Maybe I'm mistaken, maybe it wasn't contactor. It may be the sound of the mechanism when I push the yoke to the left, to bring it to "N".
Steering wheel unlocks. So, I can push it in & out of garage.
Same sound happened again when I pushed the "P" button, or, turned the car OFF (wheel lock sound).

 

[alflash]

1. I don't understand why the Tesla CAN bus was checked. If it was faulty, then according to its diagram (1 min 55 sec of one of the videos shown, Appendix 1), the Gateway could not inform the TPD program about the data of other ECUs (https://alflash.com.ua/2019/to_rav4ev/can_screen.jpg)

2. I also don't understand why the Toyota CAN bus was checked in such a state of the car.

3. And I don't understand at all why the HVIL line itself was not checked...
p.s. For example, its total resistance is 240 Ohm and the resistance of each component.

NOTES. When trying to enter Ready or Charge modes, the BMS, as shown in the previous videos, first checks the high-voltage lines in the mode that is displayed in the TPD as Precharge mode*, and this is accompanied by clicks of the corresponding contactor and relay**.

* For example, https://www.sensata.com/sites/defau...-design-precharge-circuits-evs-whitepaper.pdf

The RAV4EV HVIL circuit has resistors in three ECUs.

The total resistance of these resistors, connected in series, is 240 ohms. Measuring this resistance will allow you to minimize the simple search for the cause of the BMS_f008 code.

By the way, the cause of the HVIL fault code is not always the contactors being blocked.

Tesla writes.
BMS reports HVIL failure.

• If the vehicle is in standby, support or charging mode, the failure is logged as FAULT (example: BMS_f008_HW_HVIL). The vehicle opens the contactors or keeps them open.
• If the vehicle is in drive mode, the failure is logged as WARNING (example: BMS_w008_HW_HVIL), but does not open the contactors to prevent loss of drive

**P.S. https://static.wixstatic.com/media/...b7b4_90a97d1bcaa24f1cb6995c561d39ed00~mv2.png

 

[hokiematt]

Just to summarize and confirm what has been said here: you are not hearing the contactors turn on and off, you're just hearing 12V relays. With the HVIL fault present, the BMS will not close the contactors, and you will not be able to charge or to drive (READY indicator will not illuminate, D and R will be not selectable).

The thread that Al references has a good discussion about diagnosing the HVIL circuit. A condensed version: check the low voltage connector at the top of the DC-DC unit, you should get zero ohms between pins 5 and 6 (top middle and top outer/left pin, while facing the connector). On the OBC, you should get 60 ohms between pins 3 and 9 (reference photo a few posts above).

Make these two quick checks and report back, to determine the next step in diagnostics.

 

[asavage]

This time I didn't hear any contactor sound when I hit the ON/OFF button. Maybe I'm mistaken, maybe it wasn't contactor. It may be the sound of the mechanism when I push the yoke to the left, to bring it to "N".
Steering wheel unlocks. So, I can push it in & out of garage.
Same sound happened again when I pushed the "P" button, or, turned the car OFF (wheel lock sound).

I think you may be hearing the Park motor's effects. It's a 12v motor that engages/disengages the Park pawl function in the LDU in lieu of a shift cable or linkage.

Background/diatribe:
It's especially noisy if the parking brake hasn't been set prior to turning the car OFF (OFF activates the Park motor automatically) or using the console Park button. That puts load on the drivetrain, and the whole drivetrain resonates, releasing stored energy when the Park motor disengages the pawl (ie when the car is ON and you shift to D/N/R).

If the parking brake is set before turning the car off (or pressing the Park button on the console), the drivetrain doesn't get loaded with the weight of the car on the park pawl, so there's almost no noise when it's later shifted to D/N/R. A very slight click can be heard.

Relying upon the drive unit's (transmission's) park pawl to keep a car from rolling when turned off is detrimental to the motor mounts, which are crushed/expanded for the entire duration of being parked, so I got into the habit of setting the parking brake prior to taking my foot off the service brake pedal when shutting down, decades ago, and I almost never hear the noise of the drivetrain windup being released when shifting out of Park on any of my vehicles, except in the rare instance where I think I've shifted into eg D in my sloped driveway, and then I press the accelerator only to have the car roll slightly backward instead and stop: the car didn't engage D (for whatever reason) and now I'm sitting still with 4400 lbs of car being restrained by a tiny bit of semi-hardened steel lodged in a pawl tooth. When I get the car to engage D later, there's a considerable clunk when the 12v Park motor yanks that pawl out of the tooth under load, yes.

Even though every vehicle's owners manual says to set the park brake prior to releasing the service brake when parking, hardly anyone does this [shrug]. IMO it's a miracle cars don't roll away more often, and that motor mounts don't fail badly enough to warrant replacing more often.

 

[Improve_RAV4EV]

Just to summarize and confirm what has been said here: you are not hearing the contactors turn on and off, you're just hearing 12V relays. With the HVIL fault present, the BMS will not close the contactors, and you will not be able to charge or to drive (READY indicator will not illuminate, D and R will be not selectable).

The thread that Al references has a good discussion about diagnosing the HVIL circuit. A condensed version: check the low voltage connector at the top of the DC-DC unit, you should get zero ohms between pins 5 and 6 (top middle and top outer/left pin, while facing the connector). On the OBC, you should get 60 ohms between pins 3 and 9 (reference photo a few posts above).

Make these two quick checks and report back, to determine the next step in diagnostics.

Thanks Hokiematt. I've been reading alflash's recommendations and videos more carefully. Read the whole tread from top bottom again.
The car is in a garage, quiet environment. So, click sounds are easier and louder to hear. You're right, they sound like 12V relays. If it was the contactors, the car would not give HVIL fault, would go into "D", etc. I got that part (finally). I'm now totally focused to HVIL issue.

I'm technically inclined, but this is the first time I'm working on an EV. I made a page of "EV Technical Dictionary"!
Since yesterday, I'm trying to locate "LV Connector on the DCDC". Is it the red 17mm nut in the attached pic, or the black connector above it (SIGNAL)?
And, do you mean pin 5 & 6 on SIGNAL connector, harness side (female)? Should the car be ON?

I got the OBC pins, thanks to asavage. Should I remove the 12V battery and the orange HV plug under the seat, before I measure it?
(Asking, because you have to turn the car ON to read the Ohmage between the pins #6 & 14 (60 Ohms) from DLC3 No.2. If OFF, no reading).

BTW, new findings:
- The OBC was replaced by Toyota Service Center in 2013, with just 18 miles on it! Same problems mentioned (pic2).
- The Drive Motor was replaced in July 2019 (no wonder no blue drop of death).
Both in-warranty repairs.

 

[Improve_RAV4EV]

Even though every vehicle's owners manual says to set the park brake prior to releasing the service brake when parking, hardly anyone does this [shrug]. IMO it's a miracle cars don't roll away more often, and that motor mounts don't fail badly enough to warrant replacing more often.

I never use the Parking Hand Brake (but my wife does). It's a joke, it does not work, the car still moves, if not level.
So, when I say "parking", or "parking brake", or "P", I actually refer to the "Wheel Lock" mechanism in the motor.

 

[hokiematt]

Since yesterday, I'm trying to locate "LV Connector on the DCDC". Is it the red 17mm nut in the attached pic, or the black connector above it (SIGNAL)?
And, do you mean pin 5 & 6 on SIGNAL connector, harness side (female)? Should the car be ON?

Sorry, I see how this can be confusing given the labeling Tesla chose for the DC-DC. I'm generally using LV as 'low voltage' to differentiate from HV=high voltage. In the specific case of this DC-DC, I'm referring the low voltage black connector on the unit, that is labeled SIGNAL (and not the single pin next to it that Tesla labeled 'LV+', which I would have called 'DC Out' if it were up to me). Unplug the car wiring harness from the DC-DC, and measure the resistance of the two pins on the DC-DC unit.

I got the OBC pins, thanks to asavage. Should I remove the 12V battery and the orange HV plug under the seat, before I measure it?
(Asking, because you have to turn the car ON to read the Ohmage between the pins #6 & 14 (60 Ohms) from DLC3 No.2. If OFF, no reading).

The car does not need to be on for this check, or the one above. The resistance is being measured on the OBC, not on the harness that is part of the vehicle wiring.

Depending on the results of these two checks, we may then need to make some measurements on the vehicle-side connectors.