ALL POSTS about Charge Timer Failure

[jzj]

This is not important but possibly interesting. As we speak, a couple of local technicians, a Toyota technician, and a Toyota technician from Japan have spent all day trying, and failing, to reflash the ECU to effect a charging software update. When I went to pick up the car it obviously wasn't ready, and I was informed by frustrated technicians that the ECU reflash fails mid-task. Maybe the car, which went in a couple of days ago for an overnight check of the charging issue, will be done tomorrow? I do appreciate that they're working at the issue. I saw the Technical Service Bulletin (which seemed to allot half an hour for the repair -- doubtless part of their frustration). But neither the TSB nor any of the technicians could articulate what the charging software update was supposed to do. Whatever it is, I expect to find out tomorrow, and will give a report.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I got called by the Toyota CEC yesterday. They wanted to update me. Unfortunately the information they gave conflicted with what I had been told by my dealer....
Should I follow through? If Toyota continues the huge price cuts past April 1, I might do the Lemon Law thing and then buy another. Having Toyota decimate my resale value has not made me more patient about this issue.

They aren't going to buy back your car before April 1, so whatever new Rav4 you buy will be with an unknown deal after April 1).

I don't really see a hurry, but I would get the application going.

 

[Dsinned]

Toyota has a MAJOR public relations issue with this car. It could well be what makes the car great is also its biggest failing; the Tesla battery. As an EV, a well defined and reliable battery charging function is of paramount importance to customer satisfaction. Many owners are still fuming over the price we paid late last year, but none of us really blame Toyota for that. However, to add insult to injury, it is unforgiveable that this scheduled charging issue continues to plague the car which also adversely affects our wallets.

Is this issue so bad that it is grounds for the lemon law? Maybe, but not for me personally. I still love the car! However, it is very inconvenient. While the solution to this issue is still "in-progress", I just stay up till midnight before initiating a charge manually. Fortunately, for me personally, I only really need a recharge once a week, so I can do this over the weekend when Winter off-peak electricity is available even during the daytime. Most of the day anyway; as the rate does go back up between 5 and 9pm for PG&E customers.

I really want this car to succeed, but Toyota has already accumulated two seemingly needless strikes against it. If the price continues to plunge, leaving early adopters out in the cold, while we still have to put up with lack of priority support for this charging issue, then these two things combined will continue to create really bad customer relations and a terrible black eye for Toyota. But even worse would be Toyota's denials there is a charging issue at all, or it's the external charging equipments fault, or instead of a responsive solution, there is just a bunch of finger pointing at Tesla, or there really is a fix, but Toyota's service organizaion simply does not have the proper tools or training to implement it.

 

[AvLegends]

He asked me what I wanted him to do. I was astounded by this comment so I asked him what he could do. He said they were doing all they could do. I asked when my car will work right. He said it will be several months before a firmware fix is available. So I asked him why this had such a low priority. He said again that they were doing all they could do. I told him it wasn't enough. Again he asked me what I wanted him to do. I was so frustrated that I told him that I wanted Toyota to buy back my car. Without pausing he replied that he could initiate the arbitration process. I asked if that was really all that he could do, and he said yes. So I told him to go ahead.

Sounds like Bob from Bombay... who I've talked to many times! :shock: Gotta be the same guy who works for several big companies. Totally unflappable!

Seriously I can't believe the comments and attitude as well. I don't know if my car has this issue as I don't have 240 service at home in the garage and do my charging at work. Have the 120v brick strung out just in case and I think I will try mine as well.

Good luck and keep us posted...

 

[jzj]

I have now gotten my car back after it received the software update. The software update was as follows: it is TSB (technical service bulletin) 005013, installing "EV Gateway Control ECU logic ("to improve vehicle operation and charging timer operation") ECU Software Update 1.3.57. (As noted previously, they had a lot of trouble installing the update, even with a couple of Toyota EV technicians present.)

My conclusion after poking around and running through the different possible charge timing scenarios is that nothing has changed. Regarding how the screens provide EV information, including charging information and options, it does not appear that anything is different. Regarding the issue of losing the EVSE-vehicle handshake after 15-30 minutes, with either the EVSE set on timer or the car set on timer or both set on timer, that fundamental problem appears to be remain unchanged.

I spent quite a bit of time speaking with the dealer Service Manager. While perhaps a pleasant guy to chat with, he knew literally nothing about charging (truly, nothing at all). I patiently explained (and reexplained, and reexplained) the technology and the issues, and I requested to be able to speak with an actual Toyota EV technician. I was repeatedly told that that would never happen as a matter of Toyota policy.

Regardless that they (eventually) installed a (seemingly worthless) update, I'm not sure how Toyota could not be more unhelpful in recognizing, providing feedback, and addressing these important charge-related failings. To summarize: 1. Charge timing does not work from either the EVSE or the car side; 2. Even if it worked, the design of the charge timing on the car side is such that it can only be set for time of departure, when of course it is the charge start time that is important; 3. My Entune does not update and does not work to enable any remote control of anything on the car (and the in-car Entune Apps are visible but do not work).

I was informed five days ago by Percy Chan, the Toyota EV technician with whom I was dealing over the phone and email, that I would be contacted by the Toyota Case Manager regarding charging issues: I have not been contacted. I was informed five days ago by Percy Chan that he would get right back to me after receiving the third party vendor report regarding the problems with Entunes: I have not been contacted. My requests for additional Toyota contact information have gone unacknowledged and unmet.

What an epic fail.

 

[waidy]

.....[important stuffs deleted]......I requested to be able to speak with an actual Toyota EV technician. I was repeatedly told that that would never happen as a matter of Toyota policy.
.....[more important stuffs deleted].....

I disagreed with the Manager, that it is "Toyota's policy" of not allowing a custom to talk to the EV technician. I have been in direct contact with my EV technician since I own my 2002 Toyota Rav4EV in April 2002, and since I own my two 2012 Toyota Rav4EV in November, 2012. Next time you can tell him that Toyota of Palo Alto allows EV owners talk to the EV technician.

 

[Kohler Controller]

To summarize: 1. Charge timing does not work from either the EVSE or the car side; 2. Even if it worked, the design of the charge timing on the car side is such that it can only be set for time of departure, when of course it is the charge start time that is important; 3. My Entune does not update and does not work to enable any remote control of anything on the car (and the in-car Entune Apps are visible but do not work).

I know we are all upset when the car fails to charge when it is scheduled to. However, there is nothing technically wrong with Toyota/Tesla's approach to having us set the departure time and having the car determine when to start/end/restart charge. Although it would be more beneficial for us to determine start time to take advantage of off peak rates, that was never relayed as a feature and that it somehow should be fixed. It is an option that other EVs may have, but the RAV4EV does not and perhaps never will. Also, the fact that the display says that the car will start at a certain time while the car actually starts two hours earlier also isn't exactly an offensive act. It's annoying not to be accurate, but not anything that can't be worked around by programming the departure time with a 2 hour offset to compensate.

I agree Entunes leaves a lot to be desired and there is no reason why jzj should have to deal with both lack of charging schedule and lack of charging now feature from Entunes.

As far as I know, each RAV4EV still will charge when selecting "charge now" when exiting the car. This will not give anyone benefit to off peak charging rates, but will not leave anyone stranded either.

 

[Dsinned]

2. Even if it worked, the design of the charge timing on the car side is such that it can only be set for time of departure, when of course it is the charge start time that is important.

Fwiw, this is no different than the Chevy VOLT, which only allows setting the departure time just like the RAV4 EV. However, my VOLT "always" completes a scheduled charge a few minutes before the preset departure time. For example, setting the departure time for 7am will result in charge completion around 6:45am. However, it NEVER "starts" a scheduled charge any earlier than the time it takes to complete the charge by 7am. This is what the RAV4 EV fails miserably at doing, because using the same method, it starts charging way before the time it takes to complete the charge by 7am. Thus, it starts its scheduled charge way earlier than necessary, even before midnight, and the owner incurs a higher electricity bill because the charge did not start AFTER midnight when the electric rate is lowest. With my VOLT, using the same Leviton L2 EVSE, the same 7am scheduled departure charge automatically starts at around 3am, and completes by 6:45am, EXACTLY as expected!

 

[jzj]

Regarding the issue of setting the charge scheduling, note that Tesla's recent 4.3 update has now enabled setting the time for charging to start. My experience with the Leaf certainly leads me to conclude that this is a better approach. Given the RAV4's shared innards with the Tesla, I look forward to the RAV4 (eventually) having this superior capability - once they fix the basics like getting the carand EVSE to sustain their communication and getting Entune to work. (Of course, if they could just sustain the car-EVSE communication, then I could schedule off the EVSE, so I don't really even need the car to enable charge start scheduling.)

 

[TeCKis300]

Car failed to do its scheduled charge again last night. Something about Sundays that my car does not like.

Hopefully it will get enough juice before I need to head for the airport this afternoon... One area where having the fastest charger possible does come in handy.

Personally, I agree that the start time logic would be nice, but not necessarily, especially if the car worked in the way Dsinned's Volt works.

All I ask for is a reliable scheduled charge.

 

[Bassman]

Okay. So far the external timer is working. Have the car set to charge immediately and have the timer set for 12AM to 7AM.

 

[jzj]

Bassman: So if I understand correctly (from your prior post), you've put a 40 amp 240 volt Intermatic water heater timer between the EVSE and the 240V NEMA outlet that the EVSE would otherwise go into? I see that these devices are available for about $50 at Home Depot (http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/203557614?productId=203557614&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=203557614&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googlebase-_-D27X-_-203557614#.UVkOH1dvDKU). Given how much time I have spent on this charging scheduling issue, I would be delighted to be able to solve the problem for about $50.

 

[Bassman]

It cost $52 for the timer and about $10 for a 3 foot piece of 3 X 6AWG service cord at Lowes. Took the plug off my AeroVironment EVSE, connected the pigtail to the load side of the timer, put the plug on one end of the new service cord and connected the other end to the line side of the timer, plugged it in and set the timer to be on from 12AM to 7AM, and it worked fine. You have to turn off the departure timer in the car though and set it for charge immediately. If I want to charge at any other time, I just flip the on switch on the timer and the car starts charging. Now you won't be able to turn on the charger from your entune app when the timer has the power off , but the EVSE is in the garage, so you can just go out and turn it on.

 

[jzj]

Great explanation: thanks very much.

 

[jzj]

Thanks again to Bassman for the tip re putting the Intermatic water heater mechanical timer in line to the EVSE. I won the struggle to get it installed last night (the wiring is simple, but the space in the box is a little cramped). I set both the car and EVSE to charge immediately, and left them plugged in. My Blink Ecotality EVSE didn't seem to like it -- it goes through a long start-up, it asks for "calibration" and other stuff, and then seems to shut down for a few minutes -- but it did work. The mechanical timer is pretty basic stuff, but I suspect that this is a good thing. $50 fix (maybe think of it as simply increasing the car's price by a thousandth).

I am very pleased the charge timing problem is solved and I can now charge with off-peak rates without having to go plug it in at midnight.

BTW: Toyota gave me another call yesterday. A full ten minutes of total garbage lip service about how they are "more than happy" to assist and "doing everything they can." Yet, Toyota Case Manager Kevin Spillane -- careful to tell me repeatedly that he has no technical knowledge, did not know what Toyota was doing about the issue, and couldn't discuss anything specific in any way -- clearly did not sound more than happy. Indeed, he sounded less than happy. And did absolutely nothing. But, he checked off that 'call the complaining customer' box. Well done, Kevin.

The solution is DIY.

Thanks.

 

[miimura]

I think using the external timer that cuts the line power to the EVSE is not a good idea for a "smart" EVSE like the Blink. The dumber the EVSE, the better this solution will be. A timer that interrupts the signal from the J-plug would be better. That way the EVSE will just think that the vehicle was plugged in at the time of the timer trigger. I believe that Tony previously indicated that the Clipper Creek EVSEs have internal pins that could be used for this type of timer connection.

 

[jzj]

I can report that my Blink has worked without fail in the weeks since I installed the mechanical timer on the power line to the NEMA plug.

 

[pchilds]

I believe that Tony previously indicated that the Clipper Creek EVSEs have internal pins that could be used for this type of timer connection.

I tried a timer on the internal charge timer pin on the CS-60 and the RAV4 did not charge. My RAV4 charge timer has been working, so I have not tried any other options.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I believe that Tony previously indicated that the Clipper Creek EVSEs have internal pins that could be used for this type of timer connection.

I tried a timer on the internal charge timer pin on the CS-60 and the RAV4 did not charge. My RAV4 charge timer has been working, so I have not tried any other options.

That really sucks. We should be able to put a mechanical timer between the two resistors (150 ohm and 330 ohm) for the proximity pin.

Just leave the ones in the J1772 handle that switch with the thumb button. There should be an used wire for the proximity pin that goes to the EVSE "box". You should be able to switch that between open (so that 150 ohms is still seen by the car) and closed to 330 ohms to ground.

That will make 480 ohms in series and should turn off the EVSE "the proper way".

 

[Dsinned]

Has ANYONE on this forum yet to get any constructive feedback from Toyota (Tesla?), or actual "fix", for our RAV4 EV's onboard scheduled charge timer problem??? Anybody???