ALL POSTS about Charge Timer Failure

[jzj]

I am posting verbatim the responses just received from Toyota regarding charging issues:


Issue 1. You did not clearly inform me that the charging issue I am facing is rampant among all RAV4s.

Toyota response: The concern we are aware of is the vehicle owner uses the timer on certain non-Leviton charger instead of the vehicle timer set through the navigation system. To save the 12 volt auxiliary level, the vehicle itself will switch to the ‘sleep mode’ after 15 minutes (after vehicle being turn off), causing the vehicle not communicating with the charger anymore. If the vehicle owner uses the timer on the navigation system instead of the timer on the non-Leviton charger, the concern is not expected to happen.


Issue 2. It is clear that either Toyota has not shared its knowledge of this known fault with its dealers, or the San Francisco dealer withheld this crucial information from me. I would like to know which of these scenarios is the case.

Toyota response: Please refer to the answer above - our dealer will be advised accordingly after contacting our technical support line.


Issue 3. Toyota has had approx. half a year to develop a software update. Please inform me as to the steps Toyota has taken to effect the software update in this time.

Toyota response: The issue is due to 3rd party charging system (timer function) not working well with the vehicle system (the sleep mode indicated above). Just like other electrical vehicle makers are not obligated to design/build an electrical vehicle to be totally compatible with the Toyota-certified Leviton charger, Toyota had never promised anyone that our RAV4 EV would be compatible to certain charging systems available in the market now. The car industry itself has not yet agreed on benchmark standards for charging system as of today. However, currently Toyota is investigating the possibility of correcting related concerns through future software update. As of today we still don’t have any time frame for that update if it will finally be developed successfully.


I find these Toyota responses very unsatisfying.

 

[Dsinned]

Sound like a bad case of "plausible deniability" to me. An almost insulting response to such a well educated group of owners. Complete and total BULL SH!T Toyota!!! When you make a mistake, ADMIT IT! Trying to deflect the blame borders on fraud for the world largest automaker!

As a small consolation, at least for some of us who also own VOLTs, GM got it right! USING EXACTLY THE SAME LEVITON EVSE L2 CHARGING STATION, my VOLT's scheduled charges are peformed precisely correct each and every time. Furthermore, I heard somewhere that the VOLT has nearly 100 microprocessors, and operates on more lines of code than a Boeing 787 jetliner. Yet, the enormous amount of combined electronics and computer technology in a VOLT is nearly perfectly executed. As an example of Toyota's lack of QA, like all late model vehicles for several years now, the VOLT has individual wheel sensors, that convey a digital tire pressure readout, built in to the instrument panel gauge cluster. This is a well thought out Safety feature that simply works quite well. In contrast, Toyota only has a vintage 1960s style idiot light come on when tire pressure gets low and does not even tell you which tire is underinflated. Somebody at Toyota was asleep at the switch when they did the 2012 RAV4 EV system integration final acceptance tests. :roll:

This situation, although not nearly as serious, is almost reminiscent of Toyota's stuck accelerator pedal under a floor mat fiasco!

 

[jzj]

I never had a timer, charger compatibility, or any other problem with my Leaf.

I had expressly driven the test vehicle into my garage, pointed out my Ecotality Blink, and been told that it should work without issue.

I'd like to know if anyone was informed prior to purchase of compatibility issues with the RAV4 and non-Leviton chargers.

Thanks.

 

[yblaser]

I find these Toyota responses very unsatisfying.

Not only unsatisfying, but just plain wrong. The problem we are all having has nothing to do with EVSE timers not to mention people are having these problems with the Leviton chargers as well.

There are probably a lot of us, including me, who have not complained to Toyota knowing that they are aware of the issue and working on it. Answers like this make me rethink my decision to keep quiet. Anyone know who would be an appropriate person to contact? I have a feeling if we just call the service department, the complaint will begin and end there.

 

[jzj]

"Anyone know who would be an appropriate person to contact?"

I've been dealing with Percy Chan, [email protected], 310 468 2846. Good luck.

Thanks.

 

[SeaMonster]

That response is just plain ignorant of the issue.

Toyota has been working closely with my car and they are well aware that I have a Leviton charger which doesn't have a timer. I understand that there may be a separate issue with using an EVSE's timer. But that wouldn't be necessary if the car's timer worked.

I suggest calling the CEC (Toyota Customer Experience Center) at 800-331-4331. Get a case number. That will give you a connection to Toyota, though NOT with the technical folks. But they will follow up.

 

[TonyWilliams]

What a bunch of clowns. They are starting to sound like Nissan last summer when the batteries were having issues in the Phoenix heat.

I was convinced they would fix this stuff, but now I think that they'll just hedge their bets on placebos. Like many of us, I have never used the EVSE timer, nor does my current Clipper Creek station even have a timer.

The slap of "non-Leviton" is such total BS. News flash: it will not charge with that unit as well as any other. Both Blink (that melted my pins) and Clipper Creek are on the official Toyota approved list.

My car has has had several serious issues (burnt charging pins required battery being dropped) and now motor assembly replacement. I think I'll start dotting my i's and crossing my t's with a possible lemon law claim.

 

[TonyWilliams]

To: Percy Chan, [email protected], 310 468 2846

March 26, 2013

Sir,

My Rav4 EV, serial number 1134, has experienced a host of issues since its purchase from Mossy Toyota in San Diego November 4, 2012.

Soon, my car will get a new motor assembly due to a faulty gear reduction assembly, and in the past my car had the charging cable replaced (which necessitated dropping the main traction battery) when the pins physically melted. Thankfully, no fire happened while parked in my attached garage.

I thank the Toyota team for making good on these serious defects so far, but after reading the response that you emailed to another Rav4 EV owner concerning failed timer charge events leads me to believe that you really do not understand the issue.

My car, like many (and perhaps all) fails to regularly charge from the vehicle's onboard timer. I have never used the EVSE timer, nor does my Clipper Creek EVSE even have a timer. I will note that both the Clipper Creek and Blink EVSEs are on the Toyota "approved list".

The suggestion, it seems, that "non-Leviton" EVSEs might be to blame is so far off the mark that it's frankly insulting to the demographic that buy this $50,000 car. If this is in fact your company's official position, and your company is not going to fix the problem, but instead blame others for this failure, then I have no choice but to continue to document the issue at my dealership until I reach the "Lemon Law" threshold.

I love the car overall, so I hope this is not the final word on this important issue. The car isn't worth much if it can't do a simple refueling event and be ready to go every morning. My car has missed its charge time many times so far.

Your comments regarding J1772 standards are also not on the mark. Rav4 EV owners with the Leviton EVSE are also not getting reliable charging from the vehicle's timer.

I will be following up at the CEC (Toyota Customer Experience Center) at 800-331-4331 and get a case number.

Anthony Williams
12656 Sabre View Cove
San Diego, CA 92128
858-245-xxxx (out of the country until April13)

Sent from my iPad

 

[Bassman]

Car failed to charge last night. Third time this week! This is getting pretty ridiculous. :x

 

[palmer_md]

This thread also makes me wonder why it is taking so long for Tesla to enable the charge timer function in the Model S. It is something that they promised, and it should be easy to implement on their touchscreen, but so far has not been included in any of the updates. Perhaps Toyota tried to do something that the Tesla charger does not want to do well, and this is also why it is not available on the Model S yet. It will be interesting to see what happens when the S gets a charge timer since they are using the same charger.

 

[jzj]

I was wondering if the RAV4 interface's inability to set a start time was a Tesla-related matter. According to this site, Tesla only recently enabled its owners to set a charge start time: http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/new-firmware-v-43?page=1.

In any event, I would expect that this issue is distinct from the issue of the RAV4 dropping the handshake with the EVSE. As my car is now in the shop and I could talk to a Toyota EV technician, I have now had it confirmed that the 12V system's 15 minute sleep mode is the culprit (i.e., the port is on the 12V system and the 12V system shuts down in 15 minutes if there no activity, and so at that time the handshake between the car and the EVSE is lost). I have also had it confirmed that this is a problem with Leviton EVSEs as well as all others.

Finally, while still in gripe mode, I have also had it confirmed that my Entune is only allowing me to see the status of the car from its last trip but it does not let me control any functions on the car, making it essentially useless.

 

[Dsinned]

The scheduled charge failures that I am experiencing have nothing to do with a so-called 12V battery sleep mode. Here are the FACTS in my case:

1. The charge actually happens just not within the "schedule" window set in the center console.

2. I have a Leviton EVSE L2 Charger and it works flawlessly on my Chevy VOLT doing exactly the same scheduled charging functions.

3. A scheduled charge generally starts much earlier than expected based on the selected departure time. For example, setting a scheduled charge for a 7am completion results in a charging start time usually before midnight, but the charge completes typically within several hours, still well before 7am.

4. All of this is further complicated by what appears to be a post-charge, balancing charging, that cannot be scheduled. That is, a fully completed charge actually has two charging operations in one, but not always. The first, is the expected charge to the selected capacity desired, either standard or extended. The second, is a balancing/topping off charge usually only 28 minutes in duration. The problem with that is the huge time gap between these two operations usually of several hours. This "lost time" completely messes up the scheduled charge with respect to the expected completion time.

It has not happened to me, but some owners claim a scheduled charge never happens at all, which makes it seem plausible that the 12V battery goes into some sort of "sleep mode" after 15 minutes, which prevents the scheduled charge from happening. But this certainly does not explain "the facts" as I know them in my particular case, as outlined above.

 

[jzj]

FYI, Toyota is keeping my car another day at the shop as there is a software fix of some sort that has apparently 'just been engineered' and will be uploaded to the car tomorrow. Unfortunately, the tech who informed me of this had no idea as to the identification of the software fix, what it it would do, or what system was being affected. I requested paperwork regarding it, whether a Technical Service Bulletin or whatever Toyota has in place to define or describe the fix. (Conceivably it could be related to the recent Tesla 4.3 software update (which enables setting the charging start time), but this is total speculation on my part.)

 

[TonyWilliams]

This thread also makes me wonder why it is taking so long for Tesla to enable the charge timer function in the Model S. It is something that they promised, and it should be easy to implement on their touchscreen, but so far has not been included in any of the updates. Perhaps Toyota tried to do something that the Tesla charger does not want to do well, and this is also why it is not available on the Model S yet. It will be interesting to see what happens when the S gets a charge timer since they are using the same charger.

I don't think that's correct; Tesla has pushed out the update for a charge timer.

 

[waidy]

FYI, Toyota is keeping my car another day at the shop as there is a software fix of some sort that has apparently 'just been engineered' and will be uploaded to the car tomorrow. Unfortunately, the tech who informed me of this had no idea as to the identification of the software fix, what it it would do, or what system was being affected. I requested paperwork regarding it, whether a Technical Service Bulletin or whatever Toyota has in place to define or describe the fix. (Conceivably it could be related to the recent Tesla 4.3 software update (which enables setting the charging start time), but this is total speculation on my part.)

Here is an email from my Rav4 tech at Toyota Palo Alto sent me Tuesday 3/26:

JUST FOUND OUT WHAT CHARGING UPDATE IS FOR,IT CHANGES ECU LOGIC WHEN THE AUX BATTERY HAS LOW STATE OF CHARGE & CAR IS CHARGED CERTAIN CODES WILL NOT SET.WE WILL AUTOMATICALLY DO ANY UPDATES AVAILABLE WHEN YOU BRING IN FOR MAINTENANCE

 

[waidy]

This thread also makes me wonder why it is taking so long for Tesla to enable the charge timer function in the Model S. It is something that they promised, and it should be easy to implement on their touchscreen, but so far has not been included in any of the updates. Perhaps Toyota tried to do something that the Tesla charger does not want to do well, and this is also why it is not available on the Model S yet. It will be interesting to see what happens when the S gets a charge timer since they are using the same charger.

I don't think that's correct; Tesla has pushed out the update for a charge timer.

Tony is correct. Darren tested the schedule time charging and it works flawlessly. However, it only does "departure time" (just like the Ravs), and not start time.

 

[Dsinned]

I'm getting confused now. Are we talking about the Tesla Model S or the RAV4? I know there are commonalities between the two with respect to their Li-ion battery packs, and AC/DC onboard chargers, which suggests they BOTH have scheduled charging issues. However, is "the cause" (and ultimate fix) of these scheduling malfunctions the same in both cases? Is Toyota and Tesla BOTH working on solutions for their respective EVs, but in different areas of "the system" and one has nothing to do with the other?

This low auxilliary battery issue sounds like different issue, which perhaps explain why on certain occasions a scheduled charge fails on the RAV4. However, as I have tried to explain before, it is illogical to assume this is a fix for scheduled charging that is in fact, actually happening, just not when expected, with respect to a pre-set departure time.

 

[waidy]

I'm getting confused now. Are we talking about the Tesla Model S or the RAV4? I know there are commonalities between the two with respect to their Li-ion battery packs, and AC/DC onboard chargers, which suggests they BOTH have scheduled charging issues. However, is "the cause" (and ultimate fix) of these scheduling malfunctions the same in both cases? Is Toyota and Tesla BOTH working on solutions for their respective EVs, but in different areas of "the system" and one has nothing to do with the other?

This low auxilliary battery issue sounds like different issue, which perhaps explain why on certain occasions a scheduled charge fails on the RAV4. However, as I have tried to explain before, it is illogical to assume this is a fix for scheduled charging that is in fact, actually happening, just not when expected, with respect to a pre-set departure time.

Sorry that my message causes confusions.

* Model S never had schedule time charging functionality until the release of 4.3 few weeks ago. The 4.3 release allows for schedule time charging with the limitation only can be scheduled for departure time (just like the Rav, But the only different is that it actually works in the Model S).

* Rav4's schedule time charging either never works or does not work properly.

According to my tech at my Toyota dealer, Tesla is responsible for the time charging SW revision on the Rav.

 

[SeaMonster]

I got called by the Toyota CEC yesterday. They wanted to update me. Unfortunately the information they gave conflicted with what I had been told by my dealer. I did find out that the new firmware has a revision. I was told it is "2013mylevel" (which seems like an awfully odd revision number and more likely some sanitized and useless value). I was told that it is Tesla firmware. They also proudly told me that this fixed three of my four charging issues. I told him that I didn't know I had four charging issues and I only know of one: The car doesn't always charge on schedule. I also told him that the car continues to fail to charge on schedule. To which he told me that they had fixed 3 of my 4 charging issues. (Sigh... breathe...) I again reiterated that my issue was not fixed. I told him that he could declare they had fixed 100 issues, but that doesn't help me. He asked me what I wanted him to do. I was astounded by this comment so I asked him what he could do. He said they were doing all they could do. I asked when my car will work right. He said it will be several months before a firmware fix is available. So I asked him why this had such a low priority. He said again that they were doing all they could do. I told him it wasn't enough. Again he asked me what I wanted him to do. I was so frustrated that I told him that I wanted Toyota to buy back my car. Without pausing he replied that he could initiate the arbitration process. I asked if that was really all that he could do, and he said yes. So I told him to go ahead.

If i continue on this path, I will arbitrate with the BBB and NOT with Toyota's paid arbitrators. Their partiality is well documented. I have done a successful Lemon Law claim with the BBB before.

I then called my dealership and spoke to the customer relations guy. I told him about the call. He told me he has never seen so much activity from Toyota before and said they were really working on this. So I expressed that they have been working on this for over three months already and I am being told "several months" more before I even get a fix to test, and if this is "above and beyond" I am not impressed.

They guy from my dealership is rather good, but I know this is really out of their hands. The guy from Toyota frustrated me so much that I am seriously thinking of Lemon Law-ing this car. They would have been much better off never calling back. Good thing it is Friday. I'm going sailing tomorrow (rain or shine) and I will be much more mellow after that.

Should I follow through? If Toyota continues the huge price cuts past April 1, I might do the Lemon Law thing and then buy another. Having Toyota decimate my resale value has not made me more patient about this issue.

 

[Bassman]

Since it appears that Toyota is going to take their damn sweet time resolving this issue, I'm going to do a work around utilizing a 40 amp 240 volt Intermatic water heater timer with pigtails for a 6-50R receptacle and 6-50P plug. Then I will turn off the departure timer in the car and have it charge immediately whenever the power is turned on by the timer. The timer will externally shut off my Aerovironment 7.2 KW EVSE from 7AM to 11:59 PM and will turn it on only during my super offpeak rate time period for PG&E.