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Dsinned said:
Anybody got a contact or email address within a local TV station? I know channel 7 (KGO-TV in SF) has a daily news segment called, "7 On Your Side", hosted by Michael Finney. He puts out a different story every night on the 6 o'clock news. Other TV news programs often have consumer affairs stories and seem to like publicly shaming companies who have wronged their paying customers, especially when it comes to warranty claims.

SeaMonster, your case is probably the most well documented. Have you considered contacting a SF Bay Area TV news stations for consumer affairs assistance?

Not dramatic enough. You need something like Tony's meltdown with the blink EVSE. That'll get huge attention... Go on about how the house could have burned down with the kids sleeping upstairs, etc. Once the attention is gotten, bring up all the other bad stuff / woes.. And you're on your way to a solution! ;)

Unfortunate that things have to work this way but its just now it goes...
 
Honestly, I don't think something like this will get that much media attention or people to care. The Rav4 EV sells in small numbers (http://www.hybridcars.com/march-2013-dashboard/ and http://www.hybridcars.com/december-2012-dashboard) and only in 1 state. I suspect than most Californians aren't even aware of its existence and this isn't safety issue.

If add up the sales numbers, only ~400 have been sold so far. In contrast, from http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/march+2013+sales+chart.htm, for Jan '13 to March '13, Toyota sold 100K Camrys, 80K Corollas and 55K Priuses in the US.

The Tesla Model S didn't even ship with ANY charging timer support AFAIK. It looks like it only got added last month (http://www.teslamotors.com/en_HK/forum/forums/control-charging-start-time) even though deliveries started in June 2012!

I think at this point your best bet is that everyone that is affected by this should contact Toyota via the methods at http://www.toyota.com/support/contact.html.

See http://priuschat.com/threads/entune-class-action-suit-anyone.111550/#post-1589545 (and the stuff I linked to) and http://priuschat.com/threads/entune-class-action-suit-anyone.111550/#post-1589763 as to why.

If enough people call, email, etc., at least it'll hopefully it'll bubble up their list of priorities for this vehicle. It could make their top 10 or 20 issues list (whatever the amount is) or "this issue made up x% of calls about the Rav4 EV." People venting about it here or elsewhere where it isn't logged in a database somewhere (that hopefully someone actions on) may not help much.

If (picking this # out of the air) 40% of Rav4 EV owners call in to complain about this and it's the largest issue they get calls about, I'd hope that someone inside Toyota would see that this is something they should take action on.
fooljoe said:
I agree completely, but I think we need to distill the issue down to something very clear and simple, so some call center customer support rep who knows nothing about EVs will agree there's a real problem that needs to be escalated. And I think that if we clearly show that the actual charge start times are consistently way off from the start times displayed on the dash that should be enough to demand action.
Agreed. Make it simple. I used to test software.

Tell them your simple steps to repro, the result and what you expected. Then tell them why it matters (e.g. want to charge at cheaper electricity rates, want to stop at ___ rough % of SoC, etc.) You can give example of other EVs where it works right. Get them to log it (very important). Don't waste huge amounts of time on it. Just get the issue on their radar.
 
fooljoe said:
Dsinned said:
I had a very long telephone conversation already, with somebody deep within the bowels of Toyota about this exact same issue...
Lol, I know - I read through this whole thread before buying the Rav4 (and was almost scared off by it). I was just thinking - hoping - that maybe we need to try a new approach. Instead of listing off a bunch of problems and thoroughly explaining the issue, maybe just focusing on the very simple "says it will charge at x:xx but actually charges at y:yy" can get us past the flunkies and then get it to the point where someone who does understand the big picture and can do something about it will. Wishful thinking, I know...

To be clear, I have done this. I have spreadsheets showing every charge since I bought the car. I can show exactly what ISN'T working. Unfortunately I can not show any single reason for why it fails sometimes and succeeds other times. There is no single observable correlation with any factor that I am aware of. But I can show things I do that make a charge failure much more likely. Toyota understands what isn't working. They read over the data I took and sent technicians who instrumented my car and had me use it normally for a few weeks. They recorded everything they could from both the Toyota computer and the Tesla computer. They combined that with my recorded record of what was happening and they told me that they felt they had enough information to solve the problem. That was over two months ago. I got one software update that they told me would fix three of the four issues. I didn't know there were four issues. They came up with that on their own. Unfortunately, the three issues they "fixed" must not have been the issues I was having because my behavior hasn't changed. I was told more fixes were in the works and I would need two more firmware updates before this is solved. Why two? I have no clue. Why has it been two months with no word? I have no clue. Toyota knows what is happening and understands the issue. I think the problem is that they need Tesla to work with them to fix it and that is ... complicated.

The issue is that they haven't prioritized this. That is why I filed a lemon law claim. I recommend that everyone else take their cars in for service to have this issue fixed. When they can't fix it in three visits, you file a lemon law claim as well. I don't want to lemon law my car but I want them to take it seriously and they have yet to do that.

I also agree with the folks that think using the media would be good. I know there is a bruised reporter at the NY Times who tried to dis Tesla and had it backfire on him. Then suddenly everyone was talking about EVs. I'm sure someone would love to hear how Toyota bought in to the Tesla vision, but now can't support it. Or how Toyota chose NOT to advertise this compliance car and instead is selling them by discounting them ridiculously. How Toyota undercut the resale value of early adopters with their discounting and has not offered any amends. Remember, when Toyota had the brake issue and they gave money back to a VERY large number of customers to make up for their loss of resale value. I'm guessing their fear of a lawsuit lead them to that move. (Or was there a real lawsuit?)

If someone knows a reporter, I'd be very happy to speak with them.

You know... If they just called me regularly and gave me real information, I would not be upset. The ONLY information I have received was untrue and lacked substance (saying they fixed three of my issues, but not even being able to tell me what they fixed). Because of that, I am now annoyed and distrustful. That is really bad customer support.
 
^^^
You really want to lemon law your Rav4 EV over charge timer bugs? Ok... I'm not sure how many others here would. What would be an alternative EV w/similar range and price?

As I stated earlier, the Model S didn't even ship with ANY charge timers and had none for at least 9 months. That didn't stop people from pre-ordering and hasn't caused their order backlog to go to 0.

As I said, I think more people contacting Toyota via official channels (not just telling a dealer and having them blow it off and not recorded anywhere) will help. It will help give them quantitative measurements as to how important it is (or not) vs. other issues they're getting contacts about. For all we know, there could be some other "top issues" based upon customer contacts (e.g. spotty J1772 EVSE compatibility).
 
cwerdna said:
^^^
You really want to lemon law your Rav4 EV over charge timer bugs? Ok... I'm not sure how many others here would. What would be an alternative EV w/similar range and price?

Well, a very good alternative is the Rav4 EV. They have specs that are remarkably similar to my car, but they currently cost $10k less than mine. Not sure what they'll cost at that point in time, but it's pretty clear that it won't cost more than mine did in October.
 
SeaMonster, I'm with you. Enough is enough . . . and I completely agree with your POV.

I think the real issue lies beneath the surface. It is the failure in collaborating with Tesla, or perhaps "saving face", to come up with a solution to this problem. It could be that Tesla expects a "consultation fee", but Toyota refuses to pay it. Or, something even more ridiculous such as a "language barrier" between Tesla (in Fremont, CA) and Toyota engineers back in Japan. It is possible, even Toyota's RAV4 product development group in S. CA (or is it Michigan?), i.e. those former engineering resources for the 2nd generation "EV" project, may no longer be available or exist anymore. Who knows what is really going on, on the "inside" that is hopelessly NOT contributing to a timely resolution of this technical problem. Albeit, an issue that seemingly related to some sort of "software glitch" in the 2012 Toyota RAV4 EV, and really nothing more than that!

My suggestion, since you are already preparing to go into a lemon law situation, please email a request to Michael Finney, the on-air segment producer/reporter with "7 On Your Side", via the local ABC affiliate news station in San Francisco, KGO-TV Channel 7.

Here is the website link to input a consumer affairs complaint: http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/feature?section=news/7_on_your_side&id=5814629

You are certainly very articulate and know the issue as well, if not better than anybody (including Toyota). I'm sure more of us will be happy to come forward if you get any kind of a response from this "very public" consumer affairs TV resource. Of course, you can include a link to any one of the many focused topics on this very issue on this forum to further substantiate your complaint.

Public embarrassment via a major metropolitan area's TV station should be all it takes to get Toyota to take full responsiblity for their mistake on the product all of us paid a LOT of money for, even after the lucrative discounts of late. We bought these cars in good faith, expecting them to meet reasonable expectations of quality assurance before the Dealers starting selling Toyota's only currently available 100% BEV to the public.

Also, I'm sure Toyota's connection with TESLA on this joint venture, will cause further corporate embarrassment and someone like Elon Musk will jump over his desk to get "his people" to help resolve the problem PRONTO to come to Toyota's rescue!
 
SeaMonster said:
cwerdna said:
^^^
You really want to lemon law your Rav4 EV over charge timer bugs? Ok... I'm not sure how many others here would. What would be an alternative EV w/similar range and price?

Well, a very good alternative is the Rav4 EV. They have specs that are remarkably similar to my car, but they currently cost $10k less than mine. Not sure what they'll cost at that point in time, but it's pretty clear that it won't cost more than mine did in October.
Oh.. so you want to lemon law it so that you can get out and get another Rav4 EV for less due to the incentives and stuff going on?

The charge timer bugs will still be there until an update's issued and applied...
 
Dsinned said:
Also, I'm sure Toyota's connection with TESLA on this joint venture, will cause further corporate embarrassment and someone like Elon Musk will jump over his desk to get "his people" to help resolve the problem PRONTO to come to Toyota's rescue!
Maybe that might be an approach... contact Elon Musk directly?
 
SeaMonster, not a half bad strategy really! But, only if the "buyback is for the same price you paid initially last year.

Fwiw, if any of you that bought your RAV4 EV - THIS YEAR - at a tremendous discount, only knew how financially painful it is to have blown as much as $10k more for the same thing that some of us bought LAST YEAR, you too would be full of sour grapes if not outright rage!

Adding insult to injury, Toyota's additional incentive of 0% APR financing was not available to us "early adopters" until December or later. But, from last Summer till now, regular RAV4 buyers had exactly that lucrative financing incentive all along. That really stinks in retrospect. It's almost like Toyota was thinking, "let's just stick it to EV buyers, so more customers will buy our more "affordable", #1 selling RAV4", (which is also significantly less costly to manufacturer). Plus, you can buy one of those fully optioned, and completely restyled for the 2013 model year! That alone just about killed the "2012" EV's resale value FOR ALL OF US! Toyota also must of thought selling only 2600 EVs would be a piece of cake in the "money grows on trees", state of CA; only to find out that very few people were interested in buying such a family oriented, highly priced, SUV with no actual "visual" similarity to a real TESLA; not even any tell-tale emblems, NOTHING!

At 10k off sticker now, from most dealers, by just walking in the door and filling out a credit app, who wouldn't be suffering from buyer's remorse! I actually had to NEGOTIATE for a couple hours, and then only got ~1k off sticker.

The thing we all share in common is the car remains totally unchanged in 2013, still looks exactly the same, which cannot be good for future resale value. It's a great car; just doesn't look "new" anymore. :(
 
I think I know one scenario that will cause the RAV4EV not to charge during programmed charge.

I was testing out my new Quick220 adapter (using two separate 120VAC sockets to produce 240VAC input) with my newly adapted 120V to 240VAC Toyota EVSE. I hit "charge immediately" to initiate the charge. Everything worked fine. I then disconnected the EVSE, stopping the charge. I hit the power button in my car on then off to check to see if standard or extended charge was selected. Since the standard charge setting was already set, I did nothing and got out. I assumed that after my "charge immediately" event was over, that the car would resort back to the pre-programmed schedule of charging before 7am the next day. But it didn't.

I think that I should have turn the car on (by depressing the brake pedal while hitting the power button) instead of just going into accessory mode by hitting the power button alone. Without "resetting" the car to think that I just drove it, it must be in a loop where it was disrupted from a charge immediately mode and didn't revert back to the pre-programmed settings.

The pre-programmed function has never failed for me on normal use. I've had this skip the charging twice, both after I did the charge immediately function without clearing/resetting/restarting the vehicle fully before the next charge.
 
Kohler,

there are a number of similar scenarios. If you use the Entune app after the car has gone to sleep (say 15 minutes after turning off and locking) and tell it to refresh, that will often cause a scheduled charge to not happen. You can actually notice the icon change to indicate the car is not plugged in, even though it is. It seems that the refresh partially awoke the car and the car then assessed the wrong state. But this isn't a 100% reproducible event. Also if you refresh a few more times, it will often go sane again and a charge WILL happen. But again this is not 100%.

If you simply open the door after "sleep mode" that increases the likelihood of a scheduled charge not happening.

If you charge using the 110V and manual charge, then the subsequent scheduled charge (even if using a 240V L2 EVSE for that) will usually, but not always, fail.

If the SOC is low and a long charge is needed, then the above scenarios all seem more likely. Seems that the car often confuses itself as to how long it needs to complete a charge. It thinks it has plenty of time and waits, and then later thinks it is too late so it doesn't start. I can only guess about this, but it is somewhat backed up by the different (and changing) values that can be seen on the screen and the charge start times that actually occur.

Thanks for your data point. I think that collecting these scenarios would be helpful if Toyota is serious about fixing this.
 
Just in case anyone is interested, here is some charging data using my CS-60. It is based on start and stop times from the entunes email so there is probably a couple of minute error in the data. As I mentioned earlier in this thread the "finishing-early" problem seems to be related to the car miscalculating the charge rate, based on the linearity of the data. The one data point Dsinned provided fits on the same line even though he is charging at a different rate so it really seems to be a rate calculation error. Anyway, this doesn't really help us fix the problem, but is interesting nonetheless.

oimg
 
I will add one observation. It appears that the calculation is assuming 208V 30A charging time while you are probably charging at 240V 40A.
For example, let's take the top right data point. Your 3 hour charge took roughly 240V * 40A * 3hr = 28.8kWh out of the wall. To get the same energy out of a commercial public charger would take 28,800 / (208 * 30) = 4.615 hours. It seems the car planned for 5 hours for this charge, so maybe it wanted to finish 20 minutes early - voilla!
 
Great observation miimura. Just goes to show how ridiculous it is that the car doesn't close and open the relays to sample the voltage when you plug in, as other EVs (at least the Leaf) do. Although the Leaf does consistently finish way early as well, so consistent in fact that I can just set the end time about 1.5 hrs later and it works out great.

I haven't had enough charging events logged yet to start looking for trends, but so far for me the biggest problem is the Rav can't seem to handle an EVSE that delivers less than 40 amps. I've got a 20 amp upgraded Nissan EVSE in my garage and a CS-60 in the driveway. When on the CS-60, the timer seems to work fine, just the consistent early finishes as others have seen - at least no missed charges (yet).

On the Nissan EVSE, however, it's a complete mess. I've tried letting it charge for a little bit then unplugging to "get a feel" for the current but it doesn't seem to help. Last time I tried charging in the garage, it started charging immediately at 8 pm with a 6 am departure time and starting with 75% SOC. I unplugged and plugged back in, then it failed to charge at all. A couple other times it charged at least but started/finished way early (like 5 hours+).

I don't understand how retarded this thing is. I mean this is simple math here. It seems to calculate the "time remaining" fine when I monitor the charge from entune, so why can't it use that same algorithm to calculate a reasonable start time?

Anyone else have timer experience specific to sub-40amp EVSEs? I would like to know if it's just a Nissan EVSE thing, or just a 20amp thing, or if the common 30amp EVSEs are screwy too.
 
miimura said:
I will add one observation. It appears that the calculation is assuming 208V 30A charging time while you are probably charging at 240V 40A.

The slope of the line is .66, so just an error in the assumed voltage doesn't quite work. As you assumed in your analysis if there is also an error in the assumed/calculated current as well, that can work but based on Dsinned's data point the assumed charge rate is off by the same factor with a lower current (32A) EVSE. BTW, when I calculate hours early in the above graph I assume the car is trying to finish charging 20 minutes before the departure time.

fooljoe said:
Great observation miimura. Just goes to show how ridiculous it is that the car doesn't close and open the relays to sample the voltage when you plug in, as other EVs (at least the Leaf) do.

I agree, the Volt also closes the relay when first plugged in during a delayed charge. Seems silly not to. It also seems odd that the Rav4 will keep the relay closed even after finishing a charge (maybe because it might want to balance the cells at a later time) but then opens the relay as soon as a door is opened.

fooljoe said:
Anyone else have timer experience specific to sub-40amp EVSEs? I would like to know if it's just a Nissan EVSE thing, or just a 20amp thing, or if the common 30amp EVSEs are screwy too.

My experience with a 240V 16A EVSE is that it assumes the EVSE is 120V based on the current. It might be the same with a 20A EVSE. Plug in the EVSE right after you turn the car off and look at the screen. On mine when I used the 16A EVSE, the 220V estimated charge time disappeared only leaving the 120V estimated charge time.
 
fooljoe said:
Great observation miimura. Just goes to show how ridiculous it is that the car doesn't close and open the relays to sample the voltage when you plug in, as other EVs (at least the Leaf) do.
Yes, excellent observation . . . my VOLT "always" does this apparent sampling of my Leviton 32A L2 EVSE right after being plugged in for a subsequent scheduled charge, which work flawlessly each and every time. My RAV4 EV does not do this, so how can it determine how long the charge will take?

Another thing, even though my scheduled charges "complete" way earlier than scheduled, the balancing charge that follows a few hours later, which takes ~30 minutes, ALWAYS completed about 10 minutes past the scheduled completion time. I have seen this behavior consistently.

Thus, my "workaround" is to always do a weekly scheduled charge sometime after midnight for completion by 10am Sunday morning. I set up for this by plugging in the car late Saturday afternoon around 5pm to my Leviton 32A L2 EVSE, then make sure the LEDs start blinking alternately. At this point I just leave the car unattended, parked and locked up for the rest of the evening.

Sure enough, the charging system "wakes up" and starts charging in the middle of the night, well after midnight, and completes the scheduled charge sometime very early Sunday morning. Then, it apparently goes to sleep again for a few hours, only to wake up again around 9:40am. This is when it apparently resumes charging at a much lower rate for approximate 30 minutes for cell balancing purposes, which completes NLT 10:10am. At this point I can unplug, error free, with a fully charged and balanced battery. From that point on the car is ready to go for my next drive.

Btw, I do this scheduling routine WEEKLY, as specified above, and only on Sundays, because if the car screws up and charges waaay too early (before midnight) or takes waaay longer to complete, I am still doing the charge during PG&E's off peak rate, so that's my failsafe for avoiding a penalty by inadvertently charging at a higher rate period on some other day of the week.

In my Volt, which I have to recharge at least twice per week, and often once mid week, I can do a scheduled charge using the same Leviton 32A L2 EVSE any day of the week, after plugging in at any time, and always have the charge fully completed about 15 minutes before my next scheduled departure. It works GREAT!
 
So can anyone report on whether the Model S samples the voltage, like apparently every other EV out there? If so, why don't we get the same software?
 
fooljoe said:
So can anyone report on whether the Model S samples the voltage, like apparently every other EV out there? If so, why don't we get the same software?
I don't know how the Model S feature works, but it didn't have any delayed charge option in the software until 2013. So, they likely knew they had issues and didn't release that feature at launch. They took the time required to get it right on the Model S and then pushed it out with a software update. Personally, I would rather have the option to specify an off peak period and optionally have the car limit charging to that time window.
 

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