Solar panels for home for those in SCE area

[drmanny3]

I agree that SolarCity does an outstanding job. They took care of everything as you note. Their designs were well executed where they considered the roof surface, the roof's structural capability to hold the panels, the pitch, and the direction with respect to South facing. They were able to give me a monthly estimate accounting for the shading that occurs as the seasons change. They were spot on. I like saving money when possible. I am also willing to pay for services and products when they meet my sense of Value.

 

[fromport]

I noted that you calculated the cost at $6.47 watt installed. When you consider what I paid $10414 for 5100 watts that works out to $2.04/watt installed.

I think I am a little confused about what you wrote earlier:

If I had purchased the system SolarCity was charging $33000 but with Fed and State rebates the cost to me would have been around $16,500.My one time lease was $10414.

I calculated with the gross price vs the gross price I know to get solar installed.

You come up with fed & state rebates, I didn't.

Given I don't have to do anything, other than keep the WIFI going I am not too concerned. Unlike you I did not have the income to offset and therefore was not inclined to do it myself.

That is an unfair remark.
I never stated any ware anything about my income. Being an organic beekeeper, I don't have any federal incentives.
So you are making/spicing things up, why ?

I did not want to risk learning the process the first time by spending 2 1/2 times what it would take an experienced person. In the end we are free to make our own decisions. What was perfect for you was not of interest to me. The risk to reward was of little interest to me.

I just wanted to counter your "go with SC" showing that there are alternatives which are cheaper.
You don't have to do it yourself, as I pointed out in my previous postings: I had numbers to have solar installers set things up for a person.

Explain to me how your lease of $10k works please.

 

[ghever]

I appreciate all of your input but can we please keep my thread on track here.

No need to argue lease vs. Buy, i am sure there advantages and disadvatages to both and its a matter if consumer choice.

At this point I need info on financing and specifically the HERO program, if anyone has experience financing through HERO program id appreciate their info.

I think if I go solar it will be to buy. We just bought the house so I do not have $10,000 to shell upfront.

I also dont want to be in a longterm commitment in case we have to sell the house and move.

 

[smkettner]

My only experience with something similar is with private commercial property required community improvements financed through selling bonds that are repaid through property taxes. Very similar to homeowner Mello-Roos bonds to build a local school or street improvement bonds to finance infrastructure for a new development. It does add another layer of cost but it is not huge.

I would be curious how the tax deduction would work as you might be tempted to take the Federal 30% credit and then turn around and deduct the full property tax payment. Check with your CPA.

My neighbor did a SC lease that did delay his project as the funding needed to come from a government program. Just saying there could be some additional time to set up the HERO financing.

Otherwise I doubt it is a big deal.

 

[drmanny3]

fromport my comment about income was a response to what ghever had said concerning his over six figure income. Sorry about that. Sometimes it is hard to keep track of who is making comments.

For leasing i am guessing the rate is around 19-20 cents/kwh.

House and car combined use about 45 kw/h per work day... Times 22 work days and 8 weekends, so if i am calculating correctly im using 1100kw/h per month on average.

Current bill is $200 per mo.

Leasing at around 20 cents would cost me over $200 per month u less i am missing something? I know id get fed tax credit, not sure if sce has any rebates left?

If I can buy a system for around $15-18k and can finance through HERO for 20 years payments would be closer to $70 per mo, unless my calculations are wrong?

All comes down to the financing terms. And yes I make over six figures so can use all the tax write off because i have a rental home as well.

 

[drmanny3]

fromport, in response to your question of how the lease works. With SolarCity and other solar companies they give you the option of getting solar for either zero down to a one time lease payment. When you pay zero down you end up paying them lets say about $125 per month. The electricity you generate offsets your consumption so instead of paying an average of $200 per month your SCE bill is about $40. So in that case you saved 200-125+40 or about $35. The problem with the lease from my perspective is that it goes up every year by a set rate. For my system it was a 3.9% increase every year for the 15 years. My concern was the possibility that after so many years I could end up paying them more than my actual bill. So I asked for other options. I was given several. One was an outright purchase at about $16,000. I did not like it because after a short period of time the system was my responsibility. They gave me an option of $5000 down and $60 per month for 15 years. I liked the idea that there was no yearly increase. My only objection was that if I sold the house I would need to either have the new owner take up the lease or pay it off. So I asked for another option. That is when they gave me a one time lease payment. So for $10414 there are no further lease payments. Plus they would guarantee the system for 15 years parts and labor. Hope that explains it. By the way I understand that in leasing the Rav4EV there might have been an option of a one time lease payment. I never pursued it but think I will look into it. Again sorry for the confusion.
Manny

 

[miimura]

When I talked to SolarCity in October 2012, they were not offering traditional leases at all, only Power Purchase Agreements. However, at the same time, I talked to a Northern California SunPower Elite installer that did offer SunPower Prepaid Lease and it did look very attractive. I did not choose that one because they would not do micro-inverters and my new construction project was already pre-wired with the AC circuits appropriate for a micro-inverter install. I ended up going with a purchased system and putting it on my HELOC. No regrets at all.

 

[drmanny3]

I ran across this information that I thought would be of interest to many of you. It was a question and answer from the web site: http://energyinformative.org/benefits-of-owning-vs-leasing-solar-panels/

Charlie says
October 31, 2013 at 8:01 pm
I keep seeing these days that you can get a prepaid solar lease, for 20 years, that is 5% less than purchasing a system. I wonder how they are able to do this? And isn’t this a better deal than buying because in 20 years who knows what value the system will have.

Reply

Joe says
February 10, 2014 at 5:37 am
Charlie,
Sungevity promotes the pre-paid lease as an alternative to purchase. They claim it be more cost effective, and notionally it does appear to be, because the price is about 40-50% less than what they would charge for purchasing the same system, plus they provide full warranty and free maintenance for the term of the lease (20-year initial term), and a production guarantee that you woudn’t get if you purchased. The catch is that they get all the tax benefits, but even still, that only amounts to 30% on the federal tax credit, so I was similarly confused about how they make money on that. The answer is, in a lease situation, the leasing company can depreciate the value of the asset as a tax write-off since they technically own it, which you cannot do on your personal inome taxes if you buy it yourself. So, they end up writing off the entire cost of the system over some number of years, saving themselves a bunch of cash on their tax bill, and they ALSO get to claim the solar credits and incentives that you would have otherwise gotten if you bought it, which I guess explains how they can “sell” the pre-paid lease at just a little more than half of what that same system to cost to buy.

Smart way to leverage governement incentives, I suppose. From what I can tell, the pre-paid lease is a good way to get a worry-free solar system at a significant discount below a straight-up purchase, and still retain most of the benefits. They only thing you really lose is the flexibilty to add panels or upgrade components in the future to increase capacity, since you don’t really own it until the lease term is up and the company gives ownership of the system to you (it would cost them more to remove it and repair your roof than what the components would be worth at that point).

 

[smkettner]

My SC purchase included 20 year warranty and performance guarantee.

Even if you go prepaid lease there is still end of lease issues to resolve at some point.
Not that it is bad, just read the contract to go in with your eyes open.

 

[fooljoe]

Got some very bad news in the mail from SCE. They're redefining "on-peak" to mean 2pm-8pm instead of 10am-6pm. Install your panels facing west, and install a larger system than what's been estimated so far in this thread.

The flipside is that super off peak is now two hours longer on either side, but that's pretty much worthless unless you're trickle charging.

 

[drmanny3]

So one now gets to use off peak from 6 am to 2 pm. The problem is after you hit tier two in the off peak you are paying a pretty high rate for electricity. Almost similar to on peak rates. Are you saying that supper off peak is now starting at 10 pm till 8 am? That actually would be beneficial.
Manny

 

[ghever]

Got some very bad news in the mail from SCE. They're redefining "on-peak" to mean 2pm-8pm instead of 10am-6pm. Install your panels facing west, and install a larger system than what's been estimated so far in this thread.

The flipside is that super off peak is now two hours longer on either side, but that's pretty much worthless unless you're trickle charging.

Yes i noticed that because we recently moved and when i called SCE she informed me of the change and also no longer is it 9 cents for summer super off peak and 11 cent for winter super off peak, its 11 cents straight for all year.

75% of my household use of electricity is the car and happens during super off peak.

So west facing so that we can capture more of the setting sun? I think my issue is i have hills behind me that block the setting sun. I mean if i have a large 8 kwh system i will probably have to sell back most of that during the day and then buy back at night.

What price does SCE pay for buying back our solar generated electricity?

 

[drmanny3]

They buy back via net metering. So what happens is that lets say during the on peak you produce electricity, they then credit you at the rate they would have normally charged you. So for an example if you were to pay $0.40 kwh you actually get the credit of $0.40 That is why I changed over to TOU. Even though we are home during the day when rates are high, our Solar Panels generally produce more than what we consume and the credit helps to offset the hungry battery in the Rav4EV. At least that is what I understand. Assuming I am correct this will not change only the rates that you fall into based upon which TOU you choose. Our Rav4EV uses twice the juice that the Leaf used. Of course we drive the Rav4EV more miles as well. But in general we spend 55% of our electricity on the charging of the car. Since I only exceeded 700 kwh twice last year I will probably go with the TOU A program. I like the rates of the TOU B but you pay a $16 service charge every month.
Manny

 

[ghever]

Thanks Manny. Wow that is great that they pay us exactly what they charge others during that peak period. So if I get a 6 kwh system that makes about 36 kwh during the day, my house will only use 14 of that so id have 22 kwh left they will buy at whatever rate is. If i then buy back at night at a quarter of that rate, essentially i should be actually making money? My rav needs about 31kwh per day. Buying 31 kwh at super off peak rate of 11 cents will cost around $3.30. Selling the excess 22kwh at 0.42 cents/kwh, i will make around $9.00. So essentialy i am making about $5 per day, sounds a lil too good to be true?

 

[yblaser]

So one now gets to use off peak from 6 am to 2 pm. The problem is after you hit tier two in the off peak you are paying a pretty high rate for electricity. Almost similar to on peak rates. Are you saying that supper off peak is now starting at 10 pm till 8 am? That actually would be beneficial.
Manny

Of the three different TOU rate plans SCE will be offering, the two that have super off peak windows are tierless.

Option A is 0.40/0.25/0.11 Summer 0.28/0.21/0.11 Winter
Option B is 0.34/0.18/0.11 Summer 0.22/0.15/0.11 Winter

Option B has a $16/month service charge. Option A has a $0.10 credit per kWh for your baseline allocation.

 

[drmanny3]

ghever stated "So essentialy i am making about $5 per day, sounds a lil too good to be true?" Yes and no. Each month they will determine how much you have in credit or you owe. At the end of the 12 month period they will determine if there is any money due them. If you have a credit you do not get to carry that over to the next year but essentially lose it. So the program is not a perfect make buy, however given that your electricity generation will fall off during the winter months the credit may in fact offset that. That is one reason most folks don't overbuild their Solar Systems.
Manny

 

[ghever]

So better to get smaller system that can be expanded to larger later if needed?

I suppose i could also bank a lot of electricity to use later in summer since i live in temecula. Ill be able to run AC more or heat the pool more. Basically you cannot make money off sce, its a credit/debt ballgame and you dont carry forward each year and surplus you saved.

Now just need to talk to the solar guys locally and take it from there.

I drive my rav4 probably more than anyone else around so cali with my 100 mile roundtrip commute each day. Seems like solar is no brainer.

 

[fooljoe]

Thanks Manny. Wow that is great that they pay us exactly what they charge others during that peak period. So if I get a 6 kwh system that makes about 36 kwh during the day, my house will only use 14 of that so id have 22 kwh left they will buy at whatever rate is. If i then buy back at night at a quarter of that rate, essentially i should be actually making money? My rav needs about 31kwh per day. Buying 31 kwh at super off peak rate of 11 cents will cost around $3.30. Selling the excess 22kwh at 0.42 cents/kwh, i will make around $9.00. So essentialy i am making about $5 per day, sounds a lil too good to be true?

You've got the right idea, but your numbers are too optimistic. With on-peak only on weekdays (except holidays), and now only from 2-8pm, that means only a small amount of your excess solar production will be credited at the high on-peak rate (probably 25% or less.) Most will count at the lower off-peak rate, and now you'll even get a few early morning solar kWh credited in super off peak! Plus a lot depends on when exactly your house is using that 14 kwh. Likely most of it will occur during the on-peak period, so that means there's not a lot of solar leftover to earn credits. Also 14 kwh seems really low for Temecula, where I expect you'll use a lot of A/C. Not so much now in winter, but on the other hand solar production is much less now as well.

Where are you getting that 31 kWh figure for your car? That's really optimistic for 100 miles of driving, unless you can also charge for free at your destination. If you're getting that number from the miles driven and miles/kWh reported by the car, then you're forgetting to account for the roughly 80% charging efficiency. 31 kWh used while driving means 39 kWh pulled from the wall, and the car will also pull some extra when it preconditions before your departure, and if you want to preheat/precool the cabin.

And 36 kWh / day from a 6 kW system is also probably optimistic. My 3.84 kW system does about 18 kWh / day, so assuming similar irradiation you might expect 28 kWh / day from 6 kW. Any shading or those hills you were talking about won't help that either.

I'd still agree with the conclusion that solar's a no-brainer for you, but it's not quite so rosy as you might think, especially with the upcoming rate changes. Also you should know that if you were to "make" $5/day, SCE doesn't actually pay you that, you just store up credits and if you don't use them by the end of your billing year they go to waste. If you actually do produce more than you consume overall (ignoring TOU), SCE will pay you something for that surplus, but at a rate nowhere near the retail rates.

 

[drmanny3]

I called SCE to try and talk with someone who knows about EVs, Solar Panels, and the sub metering program. I spoke to three but not one of them knew it all. It was suggested that I could keep my current TOU-D and not change over to the TOU A or TOU B until after I get the sub metering program going. Last I heard from EMotorworks they were trying to meet SCEs requirements for the system. Ideally once it is up and running it would be like having a second meter without the expense of a second meter. Then I could choose among the various tier programs being offered to find the best for our circumstances. We are both at home during the day and hence use electricity more so than folks who take off. I hope it all comes together soon. The crazy thing is we want to sell our home and move back to Santa Barbara. We miss that place and really prefer living there. So I will probably have to go through this whole process again, assuming we don't purchase a townhouse or condo. Not sure what would happen then. It is nice to have so many folks of a similar focus to ask questions. I really enjoy this forum.
Manny

 

[smkettner]

The flipside is that super off peak is now two hours longer on either side, but that's pretty much worthless unless you're trickle charging.

Actually the longer time will make it easier to accommodate the RAV4-EV early start charge timer.