RAV4 replacements finally coming to market.

[geo]

I just watched the VW ID.4 reveal this morning. The car looks really good. Big enough to finally replace my RAV4, AWD, and decent range. I put down a deposit on one. I also have a deposit on the Volvo XC40 EV, which has similar specs, but no pricing yet.

When I got my RAV4, I had no idea I'd be driving it for almost 8 years before a suitable replacement could be had. So far, the electric SUVs have been either too expensive or too small for me. We're finally seeing ones in the Sub-$50k category that are actually useful.

How many else here are looking to upgrade soon? If so, what's on your list?

 

[asavage]

I'm awaiting the XC40 Recharge pricing. I think it's just slightly larger* in back than the ID.4, though the ID.4's pricing looks good. I do NOT want a Model Y: there are enough things I don't like about our M3 that I don't want to duplicate them in a car with a hatchback and 1" taller seats (and a heat pump).

Back in Feb., Tony & I were discussing the possibility of replacing the RAV4 EV's cells with newer technology used Model 3 cells, for a range increase, and we discussed a preliminary budget, I was willing to send him a check to fund investigating the feasibility further, but he stopped responding to emails and the VM I'd left; I figured he may be out of business.

I'm willing spend up to maybe half the cost of an ID.4 on a battery upgrade, because I don't feel that I need any new-car features -- with the possible exception of AWD -- only more range. But, if that can't be done, either an ID.4 or XC40 Re is probably in my future. I hate the idea of buying new though, the depreciation is money down the hole.

Oh, and AFAICT, the XC40 Re is only available with a black interior, which is a non-starter for me. Just my preference. I'd have to add on the cost to reupholster the interior, which seems silly on a new vehicle.

Anybody know of anyone in the western US other than Tony that fiddles with EV battery upgrades? I need 110 mile winter range, so I figure shoot for ~200 mi. summer range or it's not worth the expense of retrofitting newer/more cells.

*[later]
More difference than I'd thought.

Cargo space comparison (rear seats folded down)

XC40      : 47 ft³
E-Tron    : 55 ft³
Bolt      : 57 ft³
Mach-E    : 60 ft³ (RWD version)
iX3       : 63 ft³
ID.4      : 64 ft³
Model Y   : 68 ft³
2012 RAV4 : 73 ft³

If those numbers are correct, the ID.4 isn't an upgrade to the RAV4 in terms of cargo space, and the XC40 is even worse.

 

[Phil]

I've been eyeing this market as well. Our RAV4's extended warranty runs through summer of 2022 so there's no mad rush but I'd rather not own it without coverage. Two motor replacements, the onboard charger, and gateway ECU over the last three years. And only at 62k miles.

I quite like what we've seen of the ID4 so far and have ordered a 1st Edition. Depreciation is always annoying with new cars but, at least, the ID4 would still qualify for the full 7.5k tax credit, plus potential state incentives. Otherwise, there's always the option of getting a Model S or X CPO from Tesla, if warranty is a concern. The XC40 looks stylish but is simply too small for a family with small kids, as confirmed by asavage's helpful table. I've heard folks complain that Tesla has its own way of calculating / measuring interior cargo volume so might take the model Y numbers with a grain of salt. Anyone know how the Mach-E compares in terms of interior space?

Asavage, would love to learn more about your misgivings of the model 3. I'm not a big fan myself but never owned one and still had the model Y on my list of options. One big concern I have is that the model 3 is so noisy at highway speeds.

 

[asavage]

Phil, I really want to like both our M3 and Tesla in general, but they're both really a mixed bag.

I'm in my late 50s and have knee, back, and hand joint pain. I wouldn't label myself "limited mobility" exactly, but I can see it on my horizon. I'd placed my deposit/reservation for a M3 back in Jun2017 -- right before I bought my RAV4 EV -- based on its specs and the promise of FSD: Fully Self Driving. At the time, I was commuting ~16k annually in Seattle traffic and the idea of reducing my personal involvement in that commute, combined with the outstanding class-leading specs of the M3, led me to think the M3 would be my first brand-new car, of the approx. eighty I've owned over the years.

By the time Tesla informed me, Nov2018, that I could now take delivery of the reserved vehicle, it was clear that FSD was not in place, not close. The RAV4 EV had been in our stable for over a year and I realized it would do until somebody got FSD really working. So, I wasn't in the market and I was going to cancel the reservation. However, my partner's vehicle was approaching 200k and he decided that the M3 would serve his needs -- he's always bought new, so this was no strain for him.

We took delivery in Dec2018. Due to his being able to WFH most of 2019, and then moving to WFH entirely in Feb2020, the M3 still has only 10k miles on it. I did drive it for around 1k miles when we first got it, and still use it occasionally when I need AWD or have a longer trip than is comfortable in the RAV4 EV sans CHAdeMO, so my opinions are informed by limited actual time behind the wheel.

Exterior door handles: difficult for me to operate. Others (specifically, commenters on Electrek) expressed the opinion that I was not qualified to operate a car if opening the door caused my hand pain. I don't know that that's a valid criteria, but I don't like the handles because sometimes my hand hurts when I try to push one side of the handle in order to pull the other side. IOW, it's a bad design. It also freezes in certain weather conditions. The workaround for handle freezing is to use the phone app to turn on the cabin heater for a while before you want to leave.

Interior door handles: electronically operated latches via a push button. The technique that some mfgrs use to decrease wind noise and lower Cd by creating a door window/frame interface in which the window must be lowered to allow the door to open . . . well, that's a system with failure designed into it. Knock on wood, we have not experienced a problem with it so far, but freezing weather and door controller system failures are well documented to lead to frame trim damage when the door is opened without the window lowering itself. Oh, and window squeegee freezes to the glass. See workaround for frozen door handle above.

HVAC: no heat pump. We've seen a huge range drop in cold (ie 20s & 30s) weather. If the Leaf had a heat pump in 2013 . . .

Autopilot: scares the bejeezus out of me. I've used it a lot, and I'd really rather drive myself than have to have constant attention on its driving, ready to snatch the wheel. To be fair, it works fine on highways, but on secondary roads it'll dart into a left-turn lane suddenly, and you have no time to correct. It drives through potholes, no matter the severity. The line it takes through a curve does not inspire confidence.

Visibility: Good rearview camera but terrible physical sightlines. I back into our driveway and garage (my partner pulls in forward). I have had trouble getting it backed up nearly straight, when I can back my Sienna with a trailer attached around the harder, curved part of our driveway. I suppose I could put in more practice, but the RAV4 has great sightlines, the Sienna almost as good, so maybe I'm spoiled?

Wipers: the automatic wipers don't work well. I mean, really not well. And you have to take your eyes off the road to turn them ON/OFF/change speed. No manual delay setting. I'm just east of Seattle. 'nuf said.

Controls: I can't get used to the lack of dedicated physical, analog buttons. What's especially bad is the multi-modal controls, where a steering wheel button or knob does different things depending upon which mode some other control is in. Many people have no problem with the M3 controls, and I have to assume that this is either a side effect of my reduced capacity to adapt to new things (age or temperament, I don't know) or bad UI. Maybe some of both.

Chassis: upper control arms fail much too often. So far, I've read that most have been replaced under warranty for noise or inability to perform an alignment due to slop.

Seating: too low for comfortable ingress/egress. The RAV4 is perfect for me. Where I have hit my head on the roof only once on the RAV4 when entering, I have a very difficult time getting into the M3 without hitting my head on the roof, and I have to tuck my head down as far as I can to do it. And I'm 5'8"! My 5'6" partner complains about the same though to a lesser extent of course. The other issue is that the seat bottom is uncomfortable for me (40" waist) with the sides too high and leaving me feeling somewhat bruised on longer excursions. And this seems to be different on the driver's seat from the passenger seat; the latter pinches the backs of my upper thighs, while the driver's seat is more cramped toward my buttocks. In any event, they're both uncomfortable for me.

I don't like either of the interior color choices -- I detest black, and the white is too white, I prefer off-white, cream, tan. The one thing I really miss from my old '99 E300 was the beautiful interior.

[We had to have the turn sig switch replaced under warranty last year, they gave us a pre-facelift Model S loaner for a day, and I had some of the same issues with it.]

The Driver Profiles is excellent: the car reads which phone is in the drivers seat and adjusts the seat settings and some driver settings based on the "key" used to enter. I have my Driver settings to Chill (reduced accel pedal response: a "spongy" accel curve), Creep (mimic an automatic transmission when stopped), and Low Regeneration (lesser deceleration when removing foot from the accelerator). Partner prefers pretty much the opposite, and the Standard Regen makes for a jerky forward/backward movement when he drives, which triggers some nausea and discomfort when I'm a passenger. So I don't ride shotgun in the M3 much anymore.

[update Nov2020: Tesla has apparently removed the Low Regen option in the UI for new M3s].

I don't give a fig about 0-60 in 4.2 (which is what ours will do, now that I bought the $2k acceleration upgrade for partner's birthday -- partner loves it) or top speed of 145. Neither tickle my pickle after the second or third time I've experienced it. Those just aren't things I need or want. And I guess those are big selling points for Tesla vehicles. I'm not their target demographic -- until FSD works and works well.

HTH

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Tesla . . . they've changed the industry, and are still pushing faster than anyone else. I really want to like the company. But! I do not own Tesla stock, though I'd have like to and was torn about deciding against years ago. He -- you know who -- just does too many public, stupid things, and has taken an anti-union stand that makes it too difficult for me to get fully on board. I do keep tabs on Tesla daily, though.

 

[Phil]

Thanks a lot for these insights, Al. I must admit that, for me also, the prospect of FSD is the main attraction of Tesla. But I'm not a fan of their constantly raising the cost of the FSD option without actually delivering in terms of functionality. That said, I have no illusions that the ID4's "travel assist" is anything more than a glorified lane keeping assistant.

I really hope you hear back from Tony and that his shop did not fall victim to the pandemic's lockdowns. He's been such an amazing resource for so many of us, from the famous Tony test to his range-as-a-function-of-speed chart, etc.