PG&E Rates - Solar E-6 vs EV-A

[Braxus]

For those that have solar, have you done any cost comparisons between PG&E's E-6 vs. the new EV-A tariff schedules or know of anyone that has? From what I understand, EV owners with net metering solar installations can opt for E-6 rates or EV-A rate which is replacing E-9.

PG&E E-6 Rate Schedule
PG&E EV-A Rate Schedule

From my quick glances:

E-6

• Peak rate applies only in summer
• Peak is 1PM-7PM (31.2¢/kWh)
• Partial peak 10AM-1PM, 7PM-9PM (19.7¢/kWh)
• Off-peak (12¢/kWh)

EV-A

• Peak Rate applies in summer AND winter
• Peak is 2PM-9PM (40.7¢/kWh - Summer | 27.6¢/kWh - Winter)
• Partial is 7AM-2PM, 9PM-11PM (21.6¢/kWh | 16.5¢/kWh)
• Off-peak (9.7¢/kWh | 10.0¢/kWh)

Pros by switching from E-6 to EV-A

• Gain a much more lucrative winter time of use (ToU) rate
• No tiered baseline usage caps.
• Part-Peak starts at 7AM instead of 10AM (extra solar generation)
• Higher rate paid for peak and partial peak generation

Cons of switching from E-6 to EV-A

• Peak rate shifts from 1PM-7PM (E-6) to 2PM-9PM (EV-A).
• Things like laundry will need to be moved to 11PM for the off-peak EV-A rates. E-6 off-peak starts earlier at 9PM.
• Shorter off-peak window to use power hungry appliances and to charge your vehicle

Note that the numbers are Monday through Friday, and doesn't include weekend/holiday rates.

EDIT: Updated rates effective as of 10/1/2014

 

[arnolddeleon]

I believe the EV-A rate also avoids tiers. The rate is always the same no matter the level of usage.

arnold

 

[Dsinned]

Is my understanding correct, that for existing E9-A TOU as well as NEMS solar system ratepayers, we will be grandfathered till the end of 2014, or perhaps longer?

 

[miimura]

Schedule EV is an official tariff rate as of August 1, 2013. The quote below is from the Schedule E-9 Tariff Effective August 23, 2012.

Schedule E-9 remains open until the effective date of the new Schedule EV. Thereafter, Schedule E-9 is closed to new customers. Schedule E-9 will be eliminated on the later of the date of a decision in Phase 2 of PG&E’s 2014 General Rate Case, or December 31, 2014. At that time, all Schedule E-9 customers will be migrated to an otherwise available rate schedule.

So, since Schedule EV is now effective, you will not be able to sign up for E-9 any more. Unlike other rate schedules in the past which had indefinite grandfathering, you will eventually be kicked off E-9.

Please see my downloadable spreadsheet linked in the thread Understanding PG&E E9A Electric Vehicle Electric Rates along with some rate calculations from my own house. The spreadsheet allows you to calculate bills based on different rate schedules by using your SmartMeter data downloaded from PG&E MyEnergy. I have been working on updates to the spreadsheet so that it will calculate multiple rate schedules at one time, instead of requiring you to copy-paste in the rate schedule you want to use. I will try to finish it and post it with the finalized Schedule EV rates included this weekend.

 

[Dsinned]

Thanks Miimura.

In your opinion, which rate plan would be best in my case with two EVs and a solar system at my residence? I am currently on E9-A and my NEMS account went into effect this past March when I received a "PTO". My monthly electric bills since then show cummulative "credits", but I still pay ~$4 to $5 per month for taxes and service fees for my PG&E electricity connection to the grid.

This is a snapshoot of my most recent PG&E NEM statement:

Billing Month:.........AUG.............JUL............JUN.........MAY..........APR........TOTALS
Bill To Date:...........7/24...........6/24...........5/23........4/24.........3/25
Sum Peak:...........-0063..........-0225.........-0117.........N/A...........N/A
Sum Part Peak:.....-0121.........-0188..........-0115.........N/A...........N/A
Sum Off Peak:.......0147...........0085...........0095.........N/A...........N/A
Win Part Peak:........N/A.............N/A...........0007.......-0099.......-0028
Winter Off Peak:......N/A.............N/A...........0019........0184........0034
Total Energy:.......-0037..........-0328..........-0111........0085........0006.........-0385
Credits:.............$26.23.........$85.88........$42.81.......$1.17.......$1.20......$157.29

Note: My PV system was turned off for prolonged periods between April and May, but I still received "net" credits during those affected months even though I was using more power from the grid then my PV returned as excess generation.

Does this really mean, thus far, I have accumulated a total credit of $157.29 which will be payable after one year at my first "true up"?

Incidentally, our PV systems are of very similar capacity and fairly close together in locations. Are you by any chance registered on Generaytor (www.generaytor.com), so we can compare our systems? I'm also known as "Dsinned" on Generaytor.

 

[waidy]

Does this really mean, thus far, I have accumulated a total credit of $157.29 which will be payable after one year at my first "true up"?

Dear Dsinned: No, you don't get $157.29. PG&E looks at your total KWh produced during the year. If your kWh is negative, you get money. For example, at your turn-up period, you have -500kWh (meaning you gave PG&E 500kWh after your used), then they will pay you approximately $0.03/kWh to $0.04/kWh. For 500kWh, you will get 500*0.03 ($15) or 500*0.04($20).

I got ~$550 from PG&E last year (I over produced 15MWh).

 

[Ampster]

Does this really mean, thus far, I have accumulated a total credit of $157.29 which will be payable after one year at my first "true up"?

Dear Dsinned: No, you don't get $157.29. PG&E looks at your total KWh produced during the year. If your kWh is negative, you get money. For example, at your turn-up period, you have -500kWh (meaning you gave PG&E 500kWh after your used), then they will pay you approximately $0.03/kWh to $0.04/kWh. For 500kWh, you will get 500*0.03 ($15) or 500*0.04($20).

I got ~$550 from PG&E last year (I over produced 15MWh).

I am on SCE but my question is conceptual and probably relevant to California. Because I am generating during the peak rates and shifting usage to the super peak rates I expect to have a net negative dollars but a positive net consumption in kWhrs. Given the above assumption about true up, will I be charged the wholesale rate? (3 or 4 cents/Kwhr Or is that amount netted against the negative dollars that I have generated during the year?
.

 

[Dsinned]

I freely confess I don't really understand how PG&E's accounting system works for grid tied solar customers. On all my monthly NEM statements so far, they appear to be keeping track of would-be true up "credits" at RETAIL rates, not wholesale rates. Nevertheless, I am aware that what Waidy said is correct. At true up, PG&E will only pay for net (surplus) kWHs, and payment is based on what is paid to their wholesale suppliers of electricity (~3 to 4 cents/kWh). So then, why do they bother to issue monthly NEM statements that are so misleading?

 

[Ampster]

.......................

So then, why do they bother to issue monthly NEM statements that are so misleading?

They have had over a hundred years experience as a regulated public utility and they do have responsibilities to provide a return to their shareholders.

My cynicism is showing. LOL

 

[arnolddeleon]

I freely confess I don't really understand how PG&E's accounting system works for grid tied solar customers. On all my monthly NEM statements so far, they appear to be keeping track of would-be true up "credits" at RETAIL rates, not wholesale rates. Nevertheless, I am aware that what Waidy said is correct. At true up, PG&E will only pay for net (surplus) kWHs, and payment is based on what is paid to their wholesale suppliers of electricity (~3 to 4 cents/kWh). So then, why do they bother to issue monthly NEM statements that are so misleading?

Because it is not misleading or incorrect except for the true up statement. For example I run pretty high credits during the summer (peak) months but as winter comes I chew through the credits all the way to the point having a debit. I pay the balance at my true up statement. So for me the statements are actually always correct. They are only incorrect only if you end up with credit which usually means your system was sized incorrectly for optimum financial payback. Now you may have wanted larger system because you wanted to be closer to net zero energy but that's another kettle of fish.

The question that you should be asking is are you paid only wholesale rates for excess production?

arnold

 

[Braxus]

For example I run pretty high credits during the summer (peak) months but as winter comes I chew through the credits all the way to the point having a debit.

arnold

Your situation might be a good example for EV-A. With the EV-A schedule, the solar power generated will be now credited at a higher peak rate during summer (37.6¢/kWh vs 28.7¢/kWh) and in winter, a peak ToU rate (26.9¢/kWh vs 12.1¢/kWh) is now available. My thought behind this is if you have an unoccupied house during the work week, with EV-A, you'll be selling power to PG&E at an even higher rate during peak hours, which now includes winter and not just summer.

Downside of the EV-A rates are that those peak and partial peak rates do linger longer into the evening hours. The extra credits you earn during daytime power generation may be a wash or even worse depending on how power is budgeted when the house is occupied.

 

[arnolddeleon]

For example I run pretty high credits during the summer (peak) months but as winter comes I chew through the credits all the way to the point having a debit.

arnold

Your situation might be a good example for EV-A. With the EV-A schedule, the solar power generated will be now credited at a higher peak rate during summer (37.6¢/kWh vs 28.7¢/kWh) and in winter, a peak ToU rate (26.9¢/kWh vs 12.1¢/kWh) is now available. My thought behind this is if you have an unoccupied house during the work week, with EV-A, you'll be selling power to PG&E at an even higher rate during peak hours, which now includes winter and not just summer.

Downside of the EV-A rates are that those peak and partial peak rates do linger longer into the evening hours. The extra credits you earn during daytime power generation may be a wash or even worse depending on how power is budgeted when the house is occupied.

I have the great fortune of being in grandfathered E-7 rates. If I leave E-7 it is a one way ticket, there would be no going back. We have enough other electric loads (my primary heat source is a heat pump, we have a pool) so the it's not an obvious thing. We already take advantage of TOU to pre-cool the house on known hot days so it "coasts" over most of the peak.

If I was motivated I could the analysis since I have data from my energy monitoring system (my PG&E Smart Meter doesn't go far that back yet). PG&E could also easily present what if scenarios using Smart Meter data. One of the thing that made analysis more complicated was tiered metering (for example how do you compute baseline in the face energy production). I'm slightly surprised that there hasn't been more discussion on the lack of tiering with the new EV rates.

arnold

 

[Brandy]

For example I run pretty high credits during the summer (peak) months but as winter comes I chew through the credits all the way to the point having a debit.

arnold

Your situation might be a good example for EV-A. With the EV-A schedule, the solar power generated will be now credited at a higher peak rate during summer (37.6¢/kWh vs 28.7¢/kWh) and in winter, a peak ToU rate (26.9¢/kWh vs 12.1¢/kWh) is now available. My thought behind this is if you have an unoccupied house during the work week, with EV-A, you'll be selling power to PG&E at an even higher rate during peak hours, which now includes winter and not just summer.

Downside of the EV-A rates are that those peak and partial peak rates do linger longer into the evening hours. The extra credits you earn during daytime power generation may be a wash or even worse depending on how power is budgeted when the house is occupied.

I am also grandfathered into the E-7 rate and I have not seen anything in the new rates that compares. None of the new rates take in to consideration BOTH electric car and PV.

I believe the stated goal of PG&E is to recoup some of their costs they missed in the previous rates. Therefore from our end the new rates are going to cost the consumer more.

=D~~Brandy

I have the great fortune of being in grandfathered E-7 rates. If I leave E-7 it is a one way ticket, there would be no going back. We have enough other electric loads (my primary heat source is a heat pump, we have a pool) so the it's not an obvious thing. We already take advantage of TOU to pre-cool the house on known hot days so it "coasts" over most of the peak.

If I was motivated I could the analysis since I have data from my energy monitoring system (my PG&E Smart Meter doesn't go far that back yet). PG&E could also easily present what if scenarios using Smart Meter data. One of the thing that made analysis more complicated was tiered metering (for example how do you compute baseline in the face energy production). I'm slightly surprised that there hasn't been more discussion on the lack of tiering with the new EV rates.

arnold

 

[srl99]

For example I run pretty high credits during the summer (peak) months but as winter comes I chew through the credits all the way to the point having a debit.

arnold

Your situation might be a good example for EV-A. With the EV-A schedule, the solar power generated will be now credited at a higher peak rate during summer (37.6¢/kWh vs 28.7¢/kWh) and in winter, a peak ToU rate (26.9¢/kWh vs 12.1¢/kWh) is now available. My thought behind this is if you have an unoccupied house during the work week, with EV-A, you'll be selling power to PG&E at an even higher rate during peak hours, which now includes winter and not just summer.

Downside of the EV-A rates are that those peak and partial peak rates do linger longer into the evening hours. The extra credits you earn during daytime power generation may be a wash or even worse depending on how power is budgeted when the house is occupied.

I have the great fortune of being in grandfathered E-7 rates. If I leave E-7 it is a one way ticket, there would be no going back. We have enough other electric loads (my primary heat source is a heat pump, we have a pool) so the it's not an obvious thing. We already take advantage of TOU to pre-cool the house on known hot days so it "coasts" over most of the peak.

If I was motivated I could the analysis since I have data from my energy monitoring system (my PG&E Smart Meter doesn't go far that back yet). PG&E could also easily present what if scenarios using Smart Meter data. One of the thing that made analysis more complicated was tiered metering (for example how do you compute baseline in the face energy production). I'm slightly surprised that there hasn't been more discussion on the lack of tiering with the new EV rates.

arnold

Can you say more about preconditioning the house so that it coasts the rest of the day? If the desired temp is 78, and the outdoor temp is high enough that you'll need to run the AC later in the day, don't you have to precool the house to lower than 78, at an earlier time than the AC would normally kick on? There's no reason to believe things are linear, but you are spending extra "degree hours" and precooling the house to below the desired temp. Does that actually save money?

 

[waidy]

Can you say more about preconditioning the house so that it coasts the rest of the day? If the desired temp is 78, and the outdoor temp is high enough that you'll need to run the AC later in the day, don't you have to precool the house to lower than 78, at an earlier time than the AC would normally kick on? There's no reason to believe things are linear, but you are spending extra "degree hours" and precooling the house to below the desired temp. Does that actually save money?

If you open the windows at night and close the windows in the morning, your house would be cool during the day (that's if your house is well insulated) This way, you will never have to turn on AC unless the night time outside air is "HOT" (during heat wave).

 

[miimura]

Thanks Miimura.

In your opinion, which rate plan would be best in my case with two EVs and a solar system at my residence? I am currently on E9-A and my NEMS account went into effect this past March when I received a "PTO". My monthly electric bills since then show cummulative "credits", but I still pay ~$4 to $5 per month for taxes and service fees for my PG&E electricity connection to the grid.

This is a snapshoot of my most recent PG&E NEM statement:

Billing Month:.........AUG.............JUL............JUN.........MAY..........APR........TOTALS
Bill To Date:...........7/24...........6/24...........5/23........4/24.........3/25
Sum Peak:...........-0063..........-0225.........-0117.........N/A...........N/A
Sum Part Peak:.....-0121.........-0188..........-0115.........N/A...........N/A
Sum Off Peak:.......0147...........0085...........0095.........N/A...........N/A
Win Part Peak:........N/A.............N/A...........0007.......-0099.......-0028
Winter Off Peak:......N/A.............N/A...........0019........0184........0034
Total Energy:.......-0037..........-0328..........-0111........0085........0006.........-0385
Credits:.............$26.23.........$85.88........$42.81.......$1.17.......$1.20......$157.29

Note: My PV system was turned off for prolonged periods between April and May, but I still received "net" credits during those affected months even though I was using more power from the grid then my PV returned as excess generation.

Does this really mean, thus far, I have accumulated a total credit of $157.29 which will be payable after one year at my first "true up"?

Incidentally, our PV systems are of very similar capacity and fairly close together in locations. Are you by any chance registered on Generaytor (http://www.generaytor.com), so we can compare our systems? I'm also known as "Dsinned" on Generaytor.

Dennis,
You are "over-generating" like Waidy. You have generated 385kWh more than what you have used. You will get a small amount of money back from PG&E if you were to finish your Annual True-Up this way. However, I suspect that you will end the year with positive net usage since you were only negative in June, July, August. Most likely you will be positive net use in Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, which will use up your negative net usage. However, you may end up with a "Credit" for net energy charges. PG&E will just wipe this out if you still used more than what you produced. This is how the rules currently work. This is actually an improvement over recent history because you used to have to fill out special paperwork to get any money at all back as a net generator. Now this is automatic, albeit at a quite low rate.

I've never heard of generaytor.com but I will look into it.

 

[srl99]

Can you say more about preconditioning the house so that it coasts the rest of the day? If the desired temp is 78, and the outdoor temp is high enough that you'll need to run the AC later in the day, don't you have to precool the house to lower than 78, at an earlier time than the AC would normally kick on? There's no reason to believe things are linear, but you are spending extra "degree hours" and precooling the house to below the desired temp. Does that actually save money?

If you open the windows at night and close the windows in the morning, your house would be cool during the day (that's if your house is well insulated) This way, you will never have to turn on AC unless the night time outside air is "HOT" (during heat wave).

That's beginning analysis. If the outside temp is above the AC cool set point for long enough (better insulation/lower heat gain = temp keeps longer) you will need to run AC during the day. What's the analysis for preconditioning w AC? This is also relevent for TOU rates.

 

[arnolddeleon]

Can you say more about preconditioning the house so that it coasts the rest of the day? If the desired temp is 78, and the outdoor temp is high enough that you'll need to run the AC later in the day, don't you have to precool the house to lower than 78, at an earlier time than the AC would normally kick on? There's no reason to believe things are linear, but you are spending extra "degree hours" and precooling the house to below the desired temp. Does that actually save money?

If you open the windows at night and close the windows in the morning, your house would be cool during the day (that's if your house is well insulated) This way, you will never have to turn on AC unless the night time outside air is "HOT" (during heat wave).

That's beginning analysis. If the outside temp is above the AC cool set point for long enough (better insulation/lower heat gain = temp keeps longer) you will need to run AC during the day. What's the analysis for preconditioning w AC? This is also relevent for TOU rates.

I don't have as much thermal mass and insulation Waidy's straw bale walls but we open the windows at night to cool things down. The normal set points we use are higher for peak hours. Most of the time this is sufficient to avoid AC runtime during the peak window. Precooling is a straight bet that 1/3 the cost is a win. So when we precool we increase difference between the set point and current temperature.

arnold

 

[miimura]

I have updated my spreadsheet that calculates energy charges for PG&E rates. It now calculates for E-1, E-6, E-9A, and EV simultaneously so you can see the estimated charges at a glance.

You can use the spreadsheet two ways:
1. Download your SmartMeter data from PG&E MyEnergy using the Green Button to download a CSV file. Paste a month of CSV data into the "Time of Use Bin Calculation" tab. On the "Bill Calculation" tab, find the total energy charges in the Red shaded cells for each rate schedule.
2. Enter your own kWh usage values on the "Bill Calculation" tab in the Yellow shaded cells.

PGE Electric Rate Calculator_v1.5.xlsx on Google Drive.

Please let me know if you find any bugs.

 

[Dsinned]

Because it is not misleading or incorrect except for the true up statement. For example I run pretty high credits during the summer (peak) months but as winter comes I chew through the credits all the way to the point having a debit. I pay the balance at my true up statement. So for me the statements are actually always correct. They are only incorrect only if you end up with credit which usually means your system was sized incorrectly for optimum financial payback. Now you may have wanted larger system because you wanted to be closer to net zero energy but that's another kettle of fish.

The question that you should be asking is are you paid only wholesale rates for excess production?

arnold

I intentionally oversized my system to increase the future resale value of my home, which is a much larger residence (4BR) than my wife and I now need as empty nesters. Of course, this means it will take that much longer for my solar system to pay for itself as an investment, but at least I get to claim the 30% tax credit on a larger sized system even more than was actually necessary for net zero purposes without any restriction. Same thing with respect to the PG&E rebate. Frankly, I'm surprised oversizing does not result in any less financial benefits from the government and a publicly owned utility. I guess this means that only the homeowner is considered the best judge of what size solar system to install taking into account future energy needs of his or her household that the ubiquitous solar energy calculators do not have a way to project for.

As Waidy mentioned (and I was already aware), excess production from a solar residence, at least in PG&E's territory, is only payable at wholesale rates, currently ~3 to 4 cents per kWh; a very, very small amount of the total ROI.

Nevertheless, if my net electrical consumption goes the other way during the lower solar production months of the year - which is unlikely, because that period is when my A/C compressor goes into hibernation, and my heating system's (NG) takes over as the major contributor to my monthly PG&E bill - my NEM "credits" could be used up resulting in potentially an actual net zero (and no credit left) at the true up annual bill. If not entirely used up, then whatever fewer credits I have remaining will still only be reimbursable by PG&E at 3 to 4 cents per kWh. So, what seems misleading is that the monthly NEM statements consist of "credits" not only as units of energy in kilowatt-hours, but in equivalent monetary value that are seemingly far greater in value than the resulting credits at the wholesale payment rate/kWh. To not be misleading, only the once per year true up NEM statement should include the cumulative monetary value of the credits, if only to be forfeited. The monetary value of these credit month to month on individual NEMs statements are kind of like funny (not real) money. This is what I am actually puzzled about.