Open Source CHAdeMO inlet for Rav4 EV?

[ehelmholtz]

I have been following TonyWilliam's efforts to provide CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV which he terms "JdeMO" with interest and wondered when I might see an open source Chademo implementation for the Rav4EV. I am certain that there will always be a market for the so called JdeMo but for the DIY folks on this forum and other forums, it would really be fun to have an open source version.

As an example, the Jesla came about as Tony's implementation of an open freely available way to convert the Tesla Model S UMC to J1772. It was first done by Phil on the LEAF forum here. BBQ also reported this on this forum here. TonyWilliams posted on the Tesla forum about such a conversion here. I actually did one of these myself but realized its limitations and so went with an open source OpenEVSE build here.

Unfortunately, the only posts I see about CHAdeMo for the Rav4EV are Tony's own about the "JdeMo" The closest efforts in this regard have to do with making a portable mini-CHAdeMO charger by GaryGid and others here but this is, of course, for cars that already have CHAdeMO. Are there others working on an open source version of a CHAdeMO port for the Rav4EV?

 

[Michael Bornstein]

I think we all owe Tony a deep debt of gratitude for all the work he has done for not only the RAV4 EV crowd, but for EV owners in general. From revealing the inadequacies of Blink chargers (at the cost of melting his charging port) to the design and construction of the JdeMO. Without his efforts, the RAV4 might have eventually gone the way of the first GM EV.

Although Open Source is a nice concept, I would be against an Open Source CHAdeMO for the following reasons:

1. There is a very limited market. Tony has found only 55 (are 3 of them named TW?) customers of the 2600 RAV4's. There may even be less in the Mercedes crowd as they are probably not of the "Maker" group.
2. Safety. Tony is constantly warning us to beware of the High Voltages involved, and that is why he doesn't recommend user installation.
3. Liability. If Tony's design becomes public, and someone fries himself or sets fire to the car/garage/house, I can see the lawyers lining up.
4. Compensation. A LOT of time and effort has been expended by Tony and his group, and they deserve to get proper compensation for their efforts, not for someone to come out with a cheaper alternative. Remember, this is not his day job, he is doing this for the benefit of the rest of us.

Perhaps a more appropriate Open Source project would be an adapter to allow cars with the SAE Frankenplug to charge at CHAdeMO stations.

 

[ehelmholtz]

I think we all owe Tony a deep debt of gratitude for all the work he has done for not only the RAV4 EV crowd, but for EV owners in general. From revealing the inadequacies of Blink chargers (at the cost of melting his charging port) to the design and construction of the JdeMO. Without his efforts, the RAV4 might have eventually gone the way of the first GM EV.

Although Open Source is a nice concept, I would be against an Open Source CHAdeMO for the following reasons:

1. There is a very limited market. Tony has found only 55 (are 3 of them named TW?) customers of the 2600 RAV4's. There may even be less in the Mercedes crowd as they are probably not of the "Maker" group.
2. Safety. Tony is constantly warning us to beware of the High Voltages involved, and that is why he doesn't recommend user installation.
3. Liability. If Tony's design becomes public, and someone fries himself or sets fire to the car/garage/house, I can see the lawyers lining up.
4. Compensation. A LOT of time and effort has been expended by Tony and his group, and they deserve to get proper compensation for their efforts, not for someone to come out with a cheaper alternative. Remember, this is not his day job, he is doing this for the benefit of the rest of us.

Perhaps a more appropriate Open Source project would be an adapter to allow cars with the SAE Frankenplug to charge at CHAdeMO stations.

Tony has been very passionate since the early LEAF days especially here in San Diego which has brought much needed attention to EVs; I have always enjoyed talking EV with Tony but an open source CHAdeMO port would not be for the average user and it should not in any way take away from Tony's efforts. The open source implementation need not use "Tony's design" but if someone were to come up with the same approach, that should be OK. Incidentally, open source does not necessarily mean cheaper alternative; it might, in fact, be more expensive but there is a value to open source projects and some of us would choose to do it for the fun of it.

 

[fromport]

Although Open Source is a nice concept, I would be against an Open Source CHAdeMO for the following reasons:

1. There is a very limited market. Tony has found only 55 (are 3 of them named TW?) customers of the 2600 RAV4's.

I don't think TW is a "customer" and I don't think he was included in the count.
Given that only 4.5% of the rav4ev's are "known" in the vin database, that means Tony's market has way more potential, if he only knew how to reach them.

There may even be less in the Mercedes crowd as they are probably not of the "Maker" group.

The Mercedes is just on the market. People are still within the first months of enjoying the car without seeing drawbacks like taking it on a longer trip with charge time delay's.
I think in a year from now, the mercedes group will be way more involved in the QC option.
That is just timing.

2. Safety. Tony is constantly warning us to beware of the High Voltages involved, and that is why he doesn't recommend user installation.

If you don't know what you are doing, stay away from it. That is a general rule in life ;-)

3. Liability. If Tony's design becomes public, and someone fries himself or sets fire to the car/garage/house, I can see the lawyers lining up.

I am not sure who would be prosecuted: Tony or the person making things public.
Unfortunately part of the culture here in the usa.

4. Compensation. A LOT of time and effort has been expended by Tony and his group, and they deserve to get proper compensation for their efforts, not for someone to come out with a cheaper alternative. Remember, this is not his day job, he is doing this for the benefit of the rest of us.

Perhaps a more appropriate Open Source project would be an adapter to allow cars with the SAE Frankenplug to charge at CHAdeMO stations.

Start it ;-)

 

[TonyWilliams]

The above very nicely summarizes my thoughts quite nicely.

Things we need in the EV world:

1) Frankenplug charger adaptors, so that the 150,000 CHAdeMO port equipped cars (and several dozen RAV4 and Mercedes B-Class ED''s) can use the Frankenplug when the adjoining CHAdeMO charger is occupied.

The chances of the Frankenplug charger being in use with a few thousand cars driving around is slim, so it will likely always be available.

NOTE: except for some future BMW dealers, virtually EVERY Frankenplug has a CHAdeMO sitting right next to it.

2) CHAdeMO stations everywhere. My latest concept is a regional "JdeMO" network throughout the western US similar to Superchargers:

a. 100-150kW, dual head, just like Superchargers
b. Prepaid for by users
c. custom plug that is not compatible with non-paid users
d. fully compatible with CHAdeMO capable cars
e. "Dumb" stations... it starts and stops on site... no communications that interfere or fail to charge your car
f. between major metro area, LA to SF, SF to Sacto, Sacto to Reno, San Diego to LA, LA to Las Vegas, Seattle to Portland, Sacto to Oregon

Let's do one of the above as "Open Source"

 

[miimura]

One of my thoughts that has not been clearly expressed is that Open Source works well when you start from a published standard.
For example, both a J1772 EVSE and a CHAdeMO charger follows a standard. How to charge a car's traction battery is not - it's proprietary to that battery system.

 

[miimura]

c. custom plug that is not compatible with non-paid users

What kind of plug do you propose?

 

[TonyWilliams]

c. custom plug that is not compatible with non-paid users

What kind of plug do you propose?

In the Soviet era, the Russians designed their 7.62mm ball round to work only in their AK-47, but not in NATO 7.62mm weapons.

But, the AK-47 could take NATO rounds.

So, the JdeMO port would accept CHAdeMO *and* JdeMO, but CHAdeMO equipped cars could not use JdeMO without prepaid modification to their car.

We would want the tens of thousands of LEAF and future Soul EV owners to also be able to pay the upfront fee, so a modification to their car will allow this. No freeloaders, and no customer support for ad hoc. If you prepaid, you helped build the network. You're in. A simple sign offers folks a website to sign up and get their car modified; "free forever" when prepaid.

Because it's private, you will likely always find it available. With one charger and two cables, even if it's busy, you plug in and it will automatically start charging when the other car starts ramping down its charge.

 

[ehelmholtz]

...Let's do one of the above as "Open Source"

These are good thoughts but don't you think that a Frankenplug to CHAdeMO adapter would be more of a challenge since the charging protocols are different? For example for L2 charging, making a Tesla plug to J1772 adapter or cutting off the Tesla plug and putting on a J1772 is more doable since its the same protocol.

In fact, wouldn't it be easier to put a CHAdeMO port on a frankenplug car like the BMW i3, than actually making an adapter from SAE CCS to CHAdeMO? I imagine one way to implement CHAdeMO is to intercept the car's charging handshake signals and tell it that it's OK to charge and then send in direct current into the battery using a CHAdeMO port.

 

[ehelmholtz]

...So, the JdeMO port would accept CHAdeMO *and* JdeMO, but CHAdeMO equipped cars could not use JdeMO.

We would want the tens of thousands of LEAF and future Soul EV owners to also be able to pay the upfront fee, so a modification to their car will allow this. No freeloaders, and no customer support for ad hoc. If you prepaid, you helped build the network. You're in.

Now, this is a great idea; we need a charging network similar to Tesla's. The other way to implement this is to charge regular CHAdeMO equipped cars a fee to charge while those with the JdeMO can charge for free based on Vin # like Tesla does it or with a card that you swipe.

 

[fromport]

the above very nicely summarizes my thoughts quite nicely.
Things we need in the EV world:
1) Frankenplug charger adaptors, so that the 150,000 CHAdeMO port equipped cars (and several dozen RAV4 and Mercedes B-Class ED''s) can use the Frankenplug when the adjoining CHAdeMO charger is occupied.
The chances of the Frankenplug charger being in use with a few thousand cars driving around is slim, so it will likely always be available.

NOTE: except for some BMW dealers, virtually EVERY Frankenplug has a CHAdeMO sitting right next to it.

2) CHAdeMO stations everywhere. My latest concept is a regional "JdeMO" network throughout the western US similar to Superchargers:

a. 100-150kW, dual head, just like Superchargers
b. Prepaid for by users

Why not crowd source fund that as well ?
Should be able to install plenty more chargers, and people could get their money back.
win-win

c. custom plug that is not compatible with non-paid users

"the beautiful thing about standards is that there are so many"
I disagree with this.
I doubt even Tesla made a new version for QC.
They probably just included a can bus signal to communicate a vin number and some encryption to make sure the car is allowed to charge. Why not do something similar ?
If the software is the only difference, the hardware can be produced in larger quantities == cheaper.

d. fully compatible with CHAdeMO capable cars

Chademo"+" == chademo plus can bus ?
Could be even a BT/Wifi/NFC module that connects to the QC to exchange "more information"

e. "Dumb" stations... it starts and stops on site... no communications that interfere or fail to charge your car
f. between major metro area, LA to SF, SF to Sacto, Sacto to Reno, San Diego to LA, LA to Las Vegas, Seattle to Portland, Sacto to Oregon

Let's do one of the above as "Open Source"

 

[TonyWilliams]

...So, the JdeMO port would accept CHAdeMO *and* JdeMO, but CHAdeMO equipped cars could not use JdeMO.

We would want the tens of thousands of LEAF and future Soul EV owners to also be able to pay the upfront fee, so a modification to their car will allow this. No freeloaders, and no customer support for ad hoc. If you prepaid, you helped build the network. You're in.

Now, this is a great idea; we need a charging network similar to Tesla's. The other way to implement this is to charge regular CHAdeMO equipped cars a fee to charge while those with the JdeMO can charge for free based on Vin # like Tesla does it or with a card that you swipe.

No, because you need an entire accounting department, Visa card, etc.

Pay the one time fee up front, or don't use. We can't build this network on ad hoc $5 sales and "Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM)" thriftiness. The people who will want this will be happy to get involved.

 

[Michael Bornstein]

The Mercedes is just on the market. People are still within the first months of enjoying the car without seeing drawbacks like taking it on a longer trip with charge time delay's.
I think in a year from now, the mercedes group will be way more involved in the QC option.
That is just timing.

You do have a point here. Although not EV enthusiasts like the Leaf and RAV4 crowd, MB purchasers probably feel that they are buying a mini-TESLA (just like we did). They expect luxury, and will probably be very disappointed when they find how limited their range is compared to the "real" TESLA.

The JdeMO could become a popular option to add to the MB-B if Tony plays his cards right and gets MB-USA to authorize it as a dealer installed option.

Even if they don't, he could get dealers to place ads in their showrooms the same way WeatherTech advertises their products, and then get a network of authorized installers to do the installation..

 

[SeattleRav4]

Rather than crowdsourcing funding for charging locations, what about a crowdsourced effort to get the correct kinds of businesses to put in charging locations?
So far most of the charging locations I have seen are trying to follow the gas station model, that is, to put them at either "charging stations", or fast food restaurants, or in a few cases, gas stations. None of these fit the whole point of an EV. There are some showing up at shopping malls.
EVs "want" to charge while the owner is doing something else. Even "Quick Charging" isn't quick like a gas stop, and frankly does not need the constant supervision of a gas stop. Sit-down restaurants, shopping malls, and dare I say it, bars, are where we need plugs. So far much of what I have seen is trying to fit in the old paradigm.
What we need is an organized campaign, with a good set of well structured materials to appeal to the kinds of stops that would invest in bringing the customers in for an hour or so. That says L2s at shopping malls and bars and L3s at sit-down restaurants. The L2s at shopping malls seems to be progressing pretty well. The other 2 need help.
I am thinking that if we had a "package" of materials that we could print out and drop off at our favorite stop, they might be encouraged to add a couple of plugs. Perhaps we team with some local contractors so it is easy for those locations to call and get quotes so they don't have to become experts before they can make a decision.

 

[DevinL]

...So, the JdeMO port would accept CHAdeMO *and* JdeMO, but CHAdeMO equipped cars could not use JdeMO.

We would want the tens of thousands of LEAF and future Soul EV owners to also be able to pay the upfront fee, so a modification to their car will allow this. No freeloaders, and no customer support for ad hoc. If you prepaid, you helped build the network. You're in.

Now, this is a great idea; we need a charging network similar to Tesla's. The other way to implement this is to charge regular CHAdeMO equipped cars a fee to charge while those with the JdeMO can charge for free based on Vin # like Tesla does it or with a card that you swipe.

No, because you need an entire accounting department, Visa card, etc.

Pay the one time fee up front, or don't use. We can't build this network on ad hoc $5 sales and "Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM)" thriftiness. The people who will want this will be happy to get involved.

What does a CHAdeMO unit cost these days with installation? Then how do you work out maintenance, repair, and consumables (electricity) into this cost? This makes sense for Tesla Superchargers because it sells more cars and doesn't need to be sustainably funded - but a crowd-sourced network would have to recover all the costs through investors or sales.

If we imagine that each unit costs $25,000/lifetime installed (which I think is low, but I don't know) then a network of 20 units would cost $500,000. If 100 people invest in this they need to contribute $5,000/ea. At that cost, it's not even about "Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM)" thriftiness but more "Just-Buy-An-Entire-Used-Car(TM)" thriftiness or "Just-Fly-Business-Class(TM)" thriftiness. As more CHAdeMO stations are installed by the likes of NRG, Blink, AeroVironment, and various local utilities and businesses, joining such a movement becomes less and less attractive.

If at least 1,000 people can be persuaded to fund it up front, it'd bring the buy-in using these hypothetical numbers down to something like $500/person which seems more do-able. I really like this idea as I'm a big fan of the coop concept generally, but it seems tricky to get enough people on board to make it cost effective.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The JdeMO could become a popular option to add to the MB-B if Tony plays his cards right and gets MB-USA to authorize it as a dealer installed option.

Even if they don't, he could get dealers to place ads in their showrooms the same way WeatherTech advertises their products, and then get a network of authorized installers to do the installation..

Mercedes is never going to do that. Dealers might.

 

[kiwiguy]

I believe Tesla charges $2500 for Supercharger access.

What would it take to get Tesla to allow the RAV4 EV to join? Elon has talked about opening up the network to others.
Toyota couldn't care less, but maybe a group of dedicated and enthusiastic owners could make a strong case.

We share the Tesla DNA, even if we are a bit of the ugly step-sister.

 

[Incredulocious]

I believe Tesla charges $2500 for Supercharger access.

What would it take to get Tesla to allow the RAV4 EV to join? Elon has talked about opening up the network to others.
Toyota couldn't care less, but maybe a group of dedicated and enthusiastic owners could make a strong case.

Is this even possible with our RAV4's? There still is no buy-in option for Supercharger access on the 40 kWh Model S (even though it was replaced with the software-limited 60 kWh battery).

From shop.teslamotors.com:

Available on 60 kWh only. (Standard on 85 kWh. Not available on 40 kWh cars)

That said, I would love to buy in to Supercharger access!

 

[TonyWilliams]

To get Supercharger would require a deal through Toyota with Tesla. Obviously, when they are telling you how bad electric cars are (they are the "last mile" solution). you can bet that will never happen.

Plus, the $2500 access doesn't include the hardware that we don't have, nor the installation costs for that missing hardware.

We can make JdeMO accept Supercharger easy enough, but again, the user fee issue is unresolved.

 

[pchilds]

Tony, couldn't someone make a deal with Tesla to build a Supercharger to CHAdeMO adapter. You buy the adapter and that pays the Supercharger lifetime fee. It could be done, just need someone with the right connections.