New RAV4 EV Website Platform

[TonyWilliams]

Folks,

Some of you know that the owner of this website / forum, "Mike", had "permanently banned" me from all his various websites, including this one. While the ban was reversed 24 hours later, it's pretty obvious to me that there needs to be some changes.

I want to be clear that he did not ban me by accident. It was intentional, and he stated as such. In addition, he made it perfectly clear that I had not violated any terms of service on the forums, or broken any rules. We had not had a disagreements, or even a scuffle. His stated reason for banning me was to "get my attention" because neither I, nor my business partner and brother Bob, had responded to several of his emails concerning advertising. At the time of my banning (9:28am on 21 Feb 2017):

1) I was a moderator of this forum, who probably did 98% of all the moderation on the site. I had been a moderator on a very large professional pilot forum, and you might say that I learned by fire over there. This place was easy to clean up and keep organized in comparison, but I learned the trade at the highest levels. Mike has never paid me for this, nor had he taken the courtesy to thank me; not once, not ever.

2) I was a paid vendor to this and several other of Mike's forums for the past several years. In addition, we had actually planned to expand that advertising footprint to a paid commission to Mike for all sales referenced through his website, when he approached me with the idea in Jan 2017 (last month). I agreed in principle to this plan, but we had not yet worked out the details of that plan. I have paid Mike thousands of dollars over the years.

3) I have a total post count of 3647 [14.85% of all posts / 2.33 posts per day]. I don't think Mike has ever posted here once. Actually, I don't even think Mike even owns an EV of any kind.

4) On Mike's popular "MyNissanLEAF" forum, I have over 10,000 posts. Keep in mind that Mike generates income from our collective posts and "hits" to this and his other sites. The price he can ask for advertising is specifically priced based on the activity on his sites.

His quite capricious actions now, and his general overall lack of interest in this site (besides as a way to flip a buck) lead me to believe that it's time to consider an alternate home for our exchanges.

I would like this thread to be not about me or Mike, or our recent issues. I'd like to look forward to what could be.

Let the discussion begin.

 

[Philly RAV4 EV]

if you have to leave this site, let me know where your going.

 

[TonyWilliams]

if you have to leave this site, let me know where your going.

I will share that I offered to buy this forum a few years ago. I offered $5000, and was told by Mike that it was worth "$100,000".

I think the first move is to once again offer to buy the site.

If I go elsewhere, it will be with a site that I have control over, unlike here.

 

[co2112]

I always wonder who owns and operates the sites I visit. I would have never thought an EV Forum provider wouldn't own an EV. Not sure if it matters really but it is interesting. You'd think having a vested interest in getting important industry updates or information out would be an incentive to owning and operating such a site.

Don't know how reliable a website price calculator is but both the MyNissanLeaf ($41,000) and MyRav4ev ($2,500) are worth $43,600 based on the www.siteprice.org estimates. In contrast forums.49ers.com is worth $79 so take these estimates with a grain of salt.

I appreciate all the knowledge I have been able to pick up from both sites and the contributions in both time and information from you Tony. I joined the Facebook page just to find out more about your products and the BC to BC trip.

I love sports and I love EVs and I have found both sites to be a wealth of knowledge and for the most part a good place to get answers without all the side comments and political views found on others forums. I'd hate to see you go and hope you stick around but if anything else comes of this let us know. Its not like I would not come here. What would this site be worth really since it is such a small demographic based on the number of vehicles on the road and the limited number of owners or leasees who actually join a forum to talk about it. I think the $5,000 offer would have been a no brainer. But that's another topic all together.

 

[snoltor]

One of the advantages other sites like Facebook have over this forum is ease of posting pics. We don't all need to post pics, but we do get a lot of "What's this?" posts with a pic. Posting something on photobucket, or whatever site, and sharing that link here was a roundabout way of sharing a pic. So in my opinion where ever we end up, ability to easily post pics could be one of the considerations.

 

[GlennD]

I was listing my OpenEVSE's I build in the private MNL listings. Mike removed my listings and he wanted me to become a vendor. Since I sell at cost that was not an option.

He made verasbrad a vendor for a commission on the items he sells. He offered the same deal to me. There is just no profit on my items and the last thing I want is to have a business and pay taxes.

So I went away and no longer post items for sale there.

The Mercedes B EV forum seems to just be there and not moderated. It is very slow.

This forum seems to be mostly supported by Tony's posts. He is a real value here.

 

[EVrav4]

I agree (and never disagreed) that Tony contributes huge amounts of information to multiple forums that I own. But Tony.... please, tell the truth if you want to publicly bash me.

Folks,

Some of you know that the owner of this website / forum, "Mike", had "permanently banned" me from all his various websites, including this one. While the ban was reversed 24 hours later, it's pretty obvious to me that there needs to be some changes.

I want to be clear that he did not ban me by accident. It was intentional, and he stated as such. In addition, he made it perfectly clear that I had not violated any terms of service on the forums, or broken any rules. We had not had a disagreements, or even a scuffle. His stated reason for banning me was to "get my attention" because neither I, nor my business partner and brother Bob, had responded to several of his emails concerning advertising.

And it did - within 15 minutes you had sent me 3 emails, and yet between Jan 5 and Feb 21 you didn't respond once to any of my 3 emails.
Now that I had your attention, I unbanned you and you are back on the forums.

At the time of my banning (9:28am on 21 Feb 2017):

1) I was a moderator of this forum, who probably did 98% of all the moderation on the site. I had been a moderator on a very large professional pilot forum, and you might say that I learned by fire over there. This place was easy to clean up and keep organized in comparison, but I learned the trade at the highest levels. Mike has never paid me for this, nor had he taken the courtesy to thank me; not once, not ever.

I disagree. How about, for example, the email I sent 2 days ago that said:
"Hi Tony thanks for the email – I read it all.
1. Please know that I understand and appreciate the amount and depth of knowledge you have shared on the forums."

2) I was a paid vendor to this and several other of Mike's forums for the past several years. In addition, we had actually planned to expand that advertising footprint to a paid commission to Mike for all sales referenced through his website, when he approached me with the idea in Jan 2017 (last month). I agreed in principle to this plan, but we had not yet worked out the details of that plan. I have paid Mike thousands of dollars over the years.

Correct - we hadn't worked out details. That's what the email on January 5th was asking you about, and you didn't respond.
Correct - you have paid me for vendor access to the forums, but as my email on Feb 8th and Feb 20th stated (both of which you didn't respond to) your vendor access expired Feb 16th and you didn't respond saying you wanted to continue, or even that you got the emails.

3) I have a total post count of 3647 [14.85% of all posts / 2.33 posts per day]. I don't think Mike has ever posted here once. Actually, I don't even think Mike even owns an EV of any kind.

If it's relevant whether I own an EV, why don't you ask?

4) On Mike's popular "MyNissanLEAF" forum, I have over 10,000 posts. Keep in mind that Mike generates income from our collective posts and "hits" to this and his other sites. The price he can ask for advertising is specifically priced based on the activity on his sites.

Sure, same as all the internet.

His quite capricious actions now, and his general overall lack of interest in this site (besides as a way to flip a buck) lead me to believe that it's time to consider an alternate home for our exchanges.

You don't know why I didn't call you and instead emailed you back after your quick sequence of 3 emails. You don't know that my wife and I have a few weeks old baby and most of my time these days is taking care of him and my 3 other children.

I disagree that my actions were sudden and unaccountable. However, your actions, on the other hand, have been.
You went from 'please call me' emails to

There is something f*ed up in your head and I have little patience for being f*ed with.

I have considered started a forum in the past, when you couldn't keep the forums running, but it's obvious to me now that we need to get into the forum business. You do know that I also pay other folks for advertising, right? Some of them know how to build websites... successful ones. I've actually discussed this over the years with several of them, because of your past stupid ****.
[...]
If there's ANY WAY that I can make your future profits and business just a little worse than it is, I absolutely guarantee I will pursue it. A*holes like you deserve nothing less.

"Hey s*head,
Remember when I took on Nissan with their failed LEAF batteries?
I absolutely guarantee that I will have competing forums to your poorly managed s*, and to make sure that happens, I'm setting aside a nice big chunk of change to take a financial bite out of your sorry ******* ass."

I would like this thread to be not about me or Mike, or our recent issues. I'd like to look forward to what could be.

With all the direct comments you made about me this thread has to be about us. Truth be told, I'd rather this thread didn't exist.

What do you want Tony, what would you like me to do? I apologized in my emails to you and admitted that banning you wasn't the right action to get your attention.

 

[TonyWilliams]

With all the direct comments you made about me this thread has to be about us. Truth be told, I'd rather this thread didn't exist.

What do you want Tony, what would you like me to do? I apologized in my emails to you and admitted that banning you wasn't the right action to get your attention.

We both agree, I wish this thread didn't exist. I actually used this a bit as a litmus test... if you had deleted yet ANOTHER of my posts, I knew what I had to do. The fact that you are communicating is good.

I will repeat what I said to you, and several others... I really don't wish to be in the website business. I have a robust business that requires all my attention. I also have three kids (one died several years ago).

I'm totally cool with airing dirty laundry. I live my life pretty open, both the good and the bad (I'd be one ****** politician). But, I feel I have a sense of right and wrong, and a need to react to either (when I know most would just shrug their shoulders).

I don't currently have the time to address all your points this minute, but I will.

Let's start with the first step... make me an offer to buy the forum now.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Somebody else began a thread on the Nissan LEAF forum, which is where I started posting on Mike's forums many years ago.


http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=23496#p485879


This is my first post on that forum on my ban being lifted:

All,

First, I would like to thank all the folks who expressed their support for me. I can't tell you how much it meant to have the door slammed in my face and have you folks right behind me. I'm reminded of a famous quote, "I stand on the shoulders of giants", and those giants are each of you.

Mike, the owner of this forum (forum name - wxxyz), has removed my "permanent ban" a few minutes ago. While he posted earlier in this thread alluding to folks following the terms of agreement (and the inference that my ban was a product of not following the rules), ultimately his specific stated reason was otherwise. I did not break any forum rules, nor did he state that I did.

I had been, until yesterday, a paid vendor on this and other sites owned by Mike, and also a moderator on a site for the past several years. We had planned, until yesterday, to not only continue that path, but to expand our advertising through Mike in exchange for links to our company's products.

That all stopped quite unexpectedly at 9:28am yesterday. I quite frankly was dumbfounded, but I want to stress that I was not completely surprised. That's because Mike had personally "permanently banned" me 3 years ago (which also lasted less than 24 hours) in equally odd circumstances. I guess you could say that I've become accustomed to his adverse behavior.

In the future, I have informed Mike that I will no longer pay him for advertising on this and his other sites that he is a principal in. Obviously, I won't be advertising our company's many products, either. It's a bit sad, because I'm sure Mike could use the money, and our company spends THOUSANDS of dollars per month in advertising. But, I just can't in good conscience reward his actions with our hard earned money, even if it might be a detriment to our business. We will continue to support those advertisers that deal with myself and our company in a professional way.

In addition, I find it a bit silly to support the forum in more substantial ways... my freely shared knowledge and moderating, in addition to linking and sharing his web addresses on other sites as I have done for the past 6 years. Mike profits, in part, from all of our shared knowledge and exchanges here, and I'm not of the mindset to continue to help build his business at the expense of my most valuable resource, my time.

That doesn't mean I won't post. We all have friends here, and common interests to share. I'm sure it's no surprise that I feel a bit burned, and I need time to reflect on what is best for me personally, and our EV related business going forward without Mike and his forums.

Thanks all, again, for you support. I suspect I wouldn't be posting here without it.

Tailwinds always,

Tony

 

[TonyWilliams]

Mike,

On the buy out offer... I don't give a **** about the advertising revenue. I will happily license that back to you.

Consider that, should you make me an offer.

Tony

 

[EVrav4]

Tony what do you want to buy? The server space? Database or posts? Domain name?

Mike

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony what do you want to buy? The server space? Database or posts? Domain name?

Mike

I'm such a newbie to this, I'm not really sure. Let me ask some "internet folks" what I should even ask for.

You are cognizant of the end goal, correct? Whatever happens, the end game is you don't have the ability to interfere with our forum, it's members, or the posts.

I have no desire, again, to profit from this in any way. I'm willing to pay YOU to get you out of the picture, while still allowing you whatever benefit this site provides to you.

You suggest to me what makes that happen.

 

[EVrav4]

You are cognizant of the end goal, correct? Whatever happens, the end game is you don't have the ability to interfere with our forum, it's members, or the posts.

Ok thanks for clarifying.... for me to clarify, I never had any intent to interfere with the forum, members, or posts. Other than your user, which I did ban and re-instate, I never intended to block you Tony from ever having access again.

The simple way would be to figure out some way to leave things as is and just carry on, either with a public agreement, an impartial 3rd party, etc.

The more complex way is to negotiate price and terms, and transfer everything to your control.

 

[TonyWilliams]

You are cognizant of the end goal, correct? Whatever happens, the end game is you don't have the ability to interfere with our forum, it's members, or the posts.

Ok thanks for clarifying.... for me to clarify, I never had any intent to interfere with the forum, members, or posts. Other than your user, which I did ban and re-instate, I never intended to block you Tony from ever having access again.

"Permanent ban" doesn't suggest anything other than that.

The rashness of your actions suggest to me, at least, that the THOUSANDS of hours that I've spent here could be in jeopardy. You won't be able to explain that away, because it's my feelings on that matter.

The simple way would be to figure out some way to leave things as is and just carry on, either with a public agreement, an impartial 3rd party, etc.

The more complex way is to negotiate price and terms, and transfer everything to your control.

Of course, only Plan B above meets my criteria.

 

[n3ckf]

If you go to a facebook group, you'll lose me.

I dont use Facebook and wont use Facebook...

 

[eplantz]

Facebook ---- ditto

 

[TonyWilliams]

No, there needs to be either this website, or a competing website.

 

[EVrav4]

Tony I sent you PM regarding a past PM from years ago asking for clarification

 

[tridub]

Triple ditto. My interest in Fakebook is less than zero.

Thanks,

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony I sent you PM regarding a past PM from years ago asking for clarification

I went through a bunch of emails, and now I think it was a phone call. I remember you telling me that you were going upstairs to your office during the call.