New California Corridor Fast Chargers Installed

[miimura]

While I agree that the faster the chargers the better, I think that 100A DC is a reasonable minimum. That would allow the BTC dual standard chargers like the ones NRG installed in Gilroy and Sunnyvale which are powered from 120Y208V 3-phase power commonly used at commercial sites like grocery stores and hotels that have large existing utility transformers. All the 110A+ units I've seen would require a dedicated 277Y480V 3-phase utility transformer or a substantial boost transformer.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Good point.

 

[user 340]

Sure, 100 A is tolerable at the present time for some DCFCs, but a network of these will be inadequate for long-distance travel. Fortunately the CEC seems to have similar thoughts, and they have the following requirements in the 2015 (N-S) and 2016 corridor DCFC proposal calls:

(GFO-15-601..., p. 16):
The site must include at least one expansion stub out1. Each stub out must: (1) include a 2-inch minimum spare conduit run with pull-rope sized, installed, and located per the National Electrical Code for future installation of wiring supporting up to a 480VAC, 4-wire, 125 kW load; and (2) be capped off.

Host sites should have 480V 3-phase power available and adequate transformer capacity to serve the DC Fast Charger(s).
...

Tesla already has 100+ kW charging in its network, and <40 kW (100A @ <400V) will seem quite dog slow by the time any sort of real inter-city network is functional in CA (2018 and beyond?). This roll out is taking a long time, and we do not want it to be obsolete before it is even completed.

 

[Michael Bornstein]

Host sites should have 480V 3-phase power available and adequate transformer capacity to serve the DC Fast Charger(s).

Are we asking for too much? Many sites will be literally in the middle of nowhere and the chance of 480V 3-phase power being available is little to none.

I remember a post from Tony some time ago when he said that we could obtain 480V from a combination of 240V, a bunch of used Tesla batteries and BMS, and a solar array. That would allow L3 chargers to be placed in locations without 480V 3-phase.

By requiring grid power, the CEC is shooting us in the foot.

 

[smkettner]

Still great to see the installation even if a bit low on power.
Usage will dictate if upgrades are actually needed.

 

[miimura]

Host sites should have 480V 3-phase power available and adequate transformer capacity to serve the DC Fast Charger(s).

Are we asking for too much? Many sites will be literally in the middle of nowhere and the chance of 480V 3-phase power being available is little to none.

I remember a post from Tony some time ago when he said that we could obtain 480V from a combination of 240V, a bunch of used Tesla batteries and BMS, and a solar array. That would allow L3 chargers to be placed in locations without 480V 3-phase.

By requiring grid power, the CEC is shooting us in the foot.

I don't think getting 480V is really a problem if you're willing to pay the utility for a dedicated grid connection. The Grant Solicitation tgreene quoted is the new grant that is allocating a lot more money per site, likely because they want the utility service sized for a pad mounted transformer that can support 250kVA or more of chargers. I think the 2014 grant that paid for this Santa Nella charger did not make such requirements. I think they only got $500k for the whole I-5 corridor. I think the ChargePoint overlay of the same corridor in the 2016 grant is like $3M.

 

[TonyWilliams]

You have to have 480 volt to have the power levels required.

As long as there's a high-voltage line anywhere nearby, you're one transformer away from having 480v.

 

[user 340]

I think the 2014 grant that paid for this Santa Nella charger did not make such requirements. I think they only got $500k for the whole I-5 corridor. I think the ChargePoint overlay of the same corridor in the 2016 grant is like $3M.

I bet that you are right, and that is why the big outfits like ChargePoint skipped the 2013 solicitation (2014 awards) and went for the 2015 / 2016 one instead.

 

[miimura]

I think the 2014 grant that paid for this Santa Nella charger did not make such requirements. I think they only got $500k for the whole I-5 corridor. I think the ChargePoint overlay of the same corridor in the 2016 grant is like $3M.

I bet that you are right, and that is why the big outfits like ChargePoint skipped the 2013 solicitation (2014 awards) and went for the 2015 / 2016 one instead.

Wasn't the CEC also targeting non-profits for the corridor chargers anyway? I got the feeling that the commercial networks were not eligible for that solicitation.

 

[greenbert]

For those interested in the continuing rollout of electric vehicle charging infrastructure in California, there is a workshop at the California Energy Commission in Sacramento this Monday, June 6, 2016, starting at 9am. There is also an option to attend by phone or internet: see https://efiling.energy.ca.gov/getdocument.aspx?tn=211611
WebEx and Conference Call-in-toll-free number: 1-866-469-3239
Please go to https://energy.webex.com
Access code: 924 248 580
Meeting Password: meeting@9


Here is a link to the agenda and an excerpt:

http://docketpublic.energy.ca.gov/PublicDocuments/16-ALT-01/TN211721_20160603T145955_Workshop_Agenda.pdf

California Energy Commission
Staff Workshop on Funding Strategies for Electric Vehicle Infrastructure
June 6, 2016
9:00 a.m.
Art Rosenfeld Room (formerly Hearing Room A)

AGENDA

9:00 a.m. Introduction – Jennifer Allen

9:10 a.m. Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Planning and Funding Strategies
o Strategic Planning – Leslie Baroody
• Background
• Deploying chargers to meet goals
• Seeking effective mechanisms to disburse funds
• Leveraging partnerships
o Data Collection – Adeel Ahmad
• Gathering data to inform deployment
o Infrastructure Deployment Assessment Modeling – Kadir Bedir, Ph.D.
• Using travel patterns, demographics, and models to determine EV charger demand by region and
location type.

Break

o Regional Readiness Plans
• Capitalizing on existing analysis – Thanh Lopez
• Upcoming solicitation – Sharon Purewal
o Moving Towards a Sustainable Market
• California Capital Access Program Loan Loss Reserve – Brian Fauble

11:45 p.m. Lunch

1:00 p.m. Focused Projects
o Innovative Mobility Services by Using EVs – Kadir Bedir, Ph.D.
o Apartments: Fresno Case Study – Shaun Ransom
o CalGreen: City of Oakland Case Study – Lindsee Tanimoto
o South Bay Cities Council of Governments – Sharon Purewal

1:45 Public Discussion of Presentations

Adjourn

 

[user 340]

Looks like another DCFC popped up on I5 in the Central Valley:

Best Western Big Country Inn
25020 W Dorris Ave, Coalinga, CA 93210
http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/90677

Seems to be CHAdeMO only with a payment and use scheme similar to the one in Santa Nella Village (near Los Banos). Another installation by the US Green Vehicle Council from their 2014 CEC award? Hopefully reliability will be higher than the one in Santa Nella Village.

I am hoping that one will pop up in Paso Robles near 101 soon. That would be nearly equidistant (~100 mi) from existing ones in Salinas (kid of far from freeway) and Buellton (close to freeway).

 

[miimura]

I'm pretty sure the Coalinga unit is exactly what you said - a USGVC installation from the 2014 CEC grant that only delivers 25kW.

It would be nice if NRG would install another station in King City between Salinas and San Luis Obispo, but I think we will have to wait until Recargo gets going on their build-out of the 101 corridor to see any fast chargers in that stretch of FC wasteland.

 

[Michael Bornstein]

The cost of these new units is ridiculous. They are charging $0.59/kWh plus a $2.95 connect fee. That is twice P.G.&E's highest rate, 2-3x the current cost of gasoline, and 3x NRG eVGo's highest rate.
BTW, they also have a new unit in Merced. Last I saw, the Santa Nella unit was down.

 

[davewill]

The cost of these new units is ridiculous. They are charging $0.59/kWh plus a $2.95 connect fee. That is twice P.G.&E's highest rate, 2-3x the current cost of gasoline, and 3x NRG eVGo's highest rate.
BTW, they also have a new unit in Merced. Last I saw, the Santa Nella unit was down.

You try supporting a DCFC unit out in the middle of nowhere. Let's face it, nobody is making money on these...and won't until the economy of scale gets much better.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The cost of these new units is ridiculous. They are charging $0.59/kWh plus a $2.95 connect fee. That is twice P.G.&E's highest rate, 2-3x the current cost of gasoline, and 3x NRG eVGo's highest rate.
BTW, they also have a new unit in Merced. Last I saw, the Santa Nella unit was down.

You try supporting a DCFC unit out in the middle of nowhere. Let's face it, nobody is making money on these...and won't until the economy of scale gets much better.

The cost to install and operate a charger has no relationship to what gasoline costs.

Thankfully, if they work reliably, and I need to travel the 5 freeway for some reason (I just did it last night in my Tesla Model S), certainly I would pay price.

The only way to get the cost lower is a HUGE increase in EV travels, and a competitive station sitting nearby with faster speed / lower cost / etc.

What will likely happen in these very rural areas that are near absolutely nothing is that the price will have to go UP just to keep operating.

How many cars are realistically going to use these if they were:

1) free?
2) current pricing model?
3) double the current pricing model?

I suspect the answer is the same for all three.

 

[miimura]

Pretty much the only thing that will affect the likelihood that I will use a fast charger in a remote area is placement and reliability. If the station is put in a useful place along a travel corridor and there are redundant chargers available (either on-site or alternate sites nearby) then I will be MUCH more likely to plan a trip using said charger. The cost is a very minor consideration and would only come into play when choosing which site to try to charge first. Having an expensive and/or lower power charger available as backup to cheaper/faster alternatives is still useful.

 

[evdrive]

Seems like a good option to charge multiple hotel guests quickly. Not sure if I would plan a trip using this option unless it was an only resort.

I like the Dual and Quattro charger deployments at each location which were used by NRG EVgo in their charging installations.

+1 to others comments, I can't hardly wait for more charger redundancy on the major travel routes.

 

[Michael Bornstein]

I think you guys misunderstood my remarks about cost. Of course if a charger is in the middle of nowhere then caveat emptor. Merced isn't exactly the middle of nowhere. 10 miles down the road in Atwater is an eVgo station that will charge you at more than twice the rate for less than 1/3 the price. Possible the only reason to charge at Mr. Tran's station is severe necessity (you just can't go another 10 miles) or you are spending the night at that Holiday Inn. If there is a need for a high price, low capability unit, I'm sure he could have found a better site.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I think you guys misunderstood my remarks about cost. Of course if a charger is in the middle of nowhere then caveat emptor. Merced isn't exactly the middle of nowhere. 10 miles down the road in Atwater is an eVgo station that will charge you at more than twice the rate for less than 1/3 the price. Possible the only reason to charge at Mr. Tran's station is severe necessity (you just can't go another 10 miles) or you are spending the night at that Holiday Inn. If there is a need for a high price, low capability unit, I'm sure he could have found a better site.

I know folks who would drive many miles out of their way to save pennies on a gallon of gasoline, so I'm confident that the same is true with EV refueling.

I travel far too much to even have the desire to go out of my way to "save" a few dollars. My time and convenience has value.

It's extremely unlikely that I would ever use a slow DC charger for the reasons above. The convenience would have to exceed the wasted time waiting for a charge at 20-25kW, when my Rav can charge at 45kW and my Tesla at 120kW.

 

[Michael Bornstein]

Tony:

Unless you have business in Merced, you are probably taking CA-99 as a way of getting to Modesto, Stockton, or Sacramento, although some of those cities are more easily reached via I-5. I was obviously talking about the long distance traveler who would be driving the length of CA-99, not the local traveler who might be going to Merced. Even if I were going to Castle AFB, I might stay on 99 and use the faster eVGo charger at Atwater rather than the slower EVExpress at Merced