more (technical) info about the Mirai

[miimura]

I agree with bruin nut about the ev hostility towards hydrogen. I don't get it. Mind you, I think electric vehicles are the ultimate answer. I'm just for exploring all options. Let the masses decide. And hopefully there will be masses turning away from oil.

I look at some of the hate towards hydrogen and wonder what some ev owners are afraid of. It's not like the RAV4 EV has been the flawless answer. The same people hating hydrogen seem to be also complaining about the RAV4 EV. As in Lemon Law talk.

I think the RAV 4 EV is a GREAT car for around town. 98 percent of the time it fits my needs. I suspect a hydrogen would also fit the bill for 98% of the time. The difference for me is having solar and getting the power for free now without having to go anywhere to get it. Going to a station to get fuel seems old school. But stopping every 130 miles on a long distance trip for a recharge no matter how quick also seems a waste of time. Public recharging is nice to have as safety net but isn't the solution If I want to go to Canada, an airplane seems to be the right tool for that job.

To each his own. May the best solution win. I did chuckle at the Hindenburg reference. Sort of reminds be of the uninformed talk of battery fires in the Teslas a while back.

I would normally agree with you - let the "best man" win. However, the hydrogen infrastructure is not being paid by private industry, it's being paid for with public funds. That is the thing I have a problem with. Hydrogen, if it has any success at all, will not have won that success on its own merits, but on the back of the taxpayer.

 

[JasonA]

Another station down now.... good luck out there :roll:

Newport Beach is completely offline. UCI shuts down Thursday. No stations in OC. Guess I park my car until September and rent a gas car.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/513010068843714/

 

[user 340]

Getting back to the Mirai, there is no way I would buy or lease one given our experiences with the RAV4EV. The Mirai will also be a very low production car with lots of specialized parts. Given our RAV4EV experiences, I would expect reliability to be low and down times to be long. Throw in a safety issue or 2 that Toyota does not address quickly. All for a lot more $ than the RAV4EV.

I know that Toyota is pushing the Mirai and dissing EVs, but will that translate into a more reliable car with better service? I'm going to let somebody else find the answer to that question using their time and money.

BTW, I'm not a big fan of H2 for most personal vehicles. High carbon footprint at the present time, low efficiency compared to BEVs, needs a battery anyway, etc. That said, I can see some potential future applications: long haul trucking, better than batteries in severe climates, and some others. But I think those are somewhat niche applications that will not be developed much for quite some time.

 

[fromport]

Getting back to the Mirai, there is no way I would buy or lease one given our experiences with the RAV4EV. The Mirai will also be a very low production car with lots of specialized parts. Given our RAV4EV experiences, I would expect reliability to be low and down times to be long. Throw in a safety issue or 2 that Toyota does not address quickly. All for a lot more $ than the RAV4EV.

I know that Toyota is pushing the Mirai and dissing EVs, but will that translate into a more reliable car with better service? I'm going to let somebody else find the answer to that question using their time and money.

The Mirai is toyota only, if something is wrong, they can't point to the other party.

In the rav4ev case it is a co-operation of 2 manufacturers.
There have been so many of "our" rav4 model built between 2006-2012. The car itself is not unreliable.
It is clear that the tesla parts are not up to spec, but somehow toyota doesn't have the power to force tesla to get their stuff together.
Over the reasons why we can only speculate. The problem that currently gives the most problems are the drive trains.
I remember that the tesla model S also had a lot of drive train related problems in the beginning.
I've been told all the faulty gearboxes have been upgraded and the problems went away. I hardly see anyone complain about that anymore on the Tesla forum.
(not a daily visitor but regular). So what does it take to get Toyota/Tesla to do the same for the rav4ev's ?

BTW, I'm not a big fan of H2 for most personal vehicles. High carbon footprint at the present time, low efficiency compared to BEVs, needs a battery anyway, etc. That said, I can see some potential future applications: long haul trucking, better than batteries in severe climates, and some others. But I think those are somewhat niche applications that will not be developed much for quite some time.

I like this page as a reference:

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/hydrogen-cars-efficiency/

 

[arnolddeleon]

...

I like this page as a reference:

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/hydrogen-cars-efficiency/

This summarizes it well.

arnold

 

[cwerdna]

The problem that currently gives the most problems are the drive trains.
I remember that the tesla model S also had a lot of drive train related problems in the beginning.
I've been told all the faulty gearboxes have been upgraded and the problems went away. I hardly see anyone complain about that anymore on the Tesla forum.

Oh... they're most definitely still happening.

Here's just a tiny sample of recent ones:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/38546-Drive-unit-new-or-refurbishishid/page5?p=1074449&viewfull=1#post1074449
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/50363-P85D-Front-Motor-Died/page3?p=1081573&viewfull=1#post1081573
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/49275-New-Noise-immediately-after-6-500-mile-road-trip-opinions
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/49275-New-Noise-immediately-after-6-500-mile-road-trip-opinions/page5?p=1063227&viewfull=1#post1063227
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/49275-New-Noise-immediately-after-6-500-mile-road-trip-opinions/page5?p=1063446&viewfull=1#post1063446
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/40725-First-P85D-with-major-malfunction-failure-221-miles-story-repair?highlight=anxman

 

[bruin nut]

However, the hydrogen infrastructure is not being paid by private industry, it's being paid for with public funds. That is the thing I have a problem with. Hydrogen, if it has any success at all, will not have won that success on its own merits, but on the back of the taxpayer

Just curious as to why "private payment" of infrastructure is so important. I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that you took advantage of all the public money legally available when you bought or leased the RAV 4 EV. It looks like you have solar power. You get some money back for that too. And if you think that the EV infrastructure was built on the backs of private industry, then just go ahead. BEV technology is great but it would never be here and none of us would have even heard of a RAV 4 EV without heavy public investment.

 

[miimura]

However, the hydrogen infrastructure is not being paid by private industry, it's being paid for with public funds. That is the thing I have a problem with. Hydrogen, if it has any success at all, will not have won that success on its own merits, but on the back of the taxpayer

Just curious as to why "private payment" of infrastructure is so important. I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that you took advantage of all the public money legally available when you bought or leased the RAV 4 EV. It looks like you have solar power. You get some money back for that too. And if you think that the EV infrastructure was built on the backs of private industry, then just go ahead. BEV technology is great but it would never be here and none of us would have even heard of a RAV 4 EV without heavy public investment.

It's all toward the goal of zero emissions transport. My problem is that FCEV requires at least 10 times the support compared to BEV.

 

[TonyWilliams]

With the Mirai, I can drive (or soon will be able to drive) anywhere I want (Bay Area, San Diego, Palm Springs) without worry. That can't happen in and EV unless I buy a Tesla.

You seem sold on hydrogen, and it's not a big surprise (I hope) that you are in the minority of EV owners.

No, you won't be driving to San Diego, since we have no hydrogen stations now, or any planned for the near term.

With my Rav4 EV, with a $2500 add-on (JdeMO), I traveled from San Diego to Santa Rosa (north of San Francisco) in one day... 600 miles.

I also REGULARLY travel to all the places you list. I've been to the SF Bay Area with the Rav4 EV three times in the past 9 months. Palm Springs, too (easy). Los Angeles / Orange County, more times than I could count.

My brother has made two trips to Washington state, from San Diego. I'll be driving my Tesla Model S-70D up there next week. It's actually becoming easy to drive a proper electric vehicle, and you won't be able to do any of the trips I make with your hydrogen car in this decade. I absolutely guarantee it.

We may invite a hydrogen car for our BC2BC-2015 rally, Mexico to Canada and return, starting in Los Angeles on 13 Sept 2015. We will tow it with an EV for the portions of the trip that it can't handle.

You don't have to discount the Rav4 EV to make your hydrogen choice seem better. Toyota already does that, with THEIR hostility toward EVs.

Good luck.

 

[bruin nut]

With the Mirai, I can drive (or soon will be able to drive) anywhere I want (Bay Area, San Diego, Palm Springs) without worry. That can't happen in and EV unless I buy a Tesla.

You seem sold on hydrogen, and it's not a big surprise (I hope) that you are in the minority of EV owners.

No, you won't be driving to San Diego, since we have no hydrogen stations now, or any planned for the near term.

With my Rav4 EV, with a $2500 add-on (JdeMO), I traveled from San Diego to Santa Rosa (north of San Francisco) in one day... 600 miles.

I also REGULARLY travel to all the places you list. I've been to the SF Bay Area with the Rav4 EV three times in the past 9 months. Palm Springs, too (easy). Los Angeles / Orange County, more times than I could count.

My brother has made two trips to Washington state, from San Diego. I'll be driving my Tesla Model S-70D up there next week. It's actually becoming easy to drive a proper electric vehicle, and you won't be able to do any of the trips I make with your hydrogen car in this decade. I absolutely guarantee it.

We may invite a hydrogen car for our BC2BC-2015 rally, Mexico to Canada and return, starting in Los Angeles on 13 Sept 2015. We will tow it with an EV for the portions of the trip that it can't handle.

You don't have to discount the Rav4 EV to make your hydrogen choice seem better. Toyota already does that, with THEIR hostility toward EVs.

Good luck.

I am not "sold" on FCV technology, but I do think there's room at the table for multiple non-ICE technologies. But the hostility from many here is palpable and childish.

Now, as far as not being able to go to San Diego, how can you make such a guarantee. Here's the stations being built and when they'll be on line:

Carmel Valley Road, San Diego: Q1, 2016
Mission Viejo: Q1, 2016
San Juan Capistrano: Q4, 2015
Coalinga: Q4 2015
Santa Barbara: Q4, 2015

That's just a sample. The list goes on and on. Even with my Jerry-rigged RAV, supercharging takes much longer than H2 refueling, might damage the battery, and has to be done much more frequently because of shorter range. Plus, FCVs don't suffer cold weather range issues like BEVs. If I get the Mirai I'll try to make it a rally. That way, you can ridicule me and the car's technology in person.

 

[JasonA]

You did drink the Hydrogen Cool-aid... from 4hrs on the FB group TODAY!

Has anyone fueled up at OCSD yet with H70 (full fill)? Got just enough fuel to get there and back but not there again so I want to make sure. OCSD which is sometimes referred to as Fountain Valley

And those stations you say "being built and when they'll be on line:" :lol: :lol: :roll:

More like...

Approved to Build [3] : LA - Bev Blvd, UCI, Woodland Hills

Planning Approval [8]: Costa Mesa, Hayward, La Canada Flintridge, Lake Forest, San Jose, Santa Barbara, Woodside, Ontario

Approved and planning doesn't mean "being built"

Keep drinking and inviting your Oil buddies (aka Shell & BP) to the party huh?

P.S. That 50kw/ 15min DCQC fillup on the Rav just felt real good :mrgreen:

 

[JasonA]

And let me just add this... you're basically like the meth dealer telling everyone it's good for you and peddling your warez. Saying H2 is everywhere and IT'S AWESOME!!

This is what Hyundai did...... and look what happened...

Open Stations [8]: Burbank, UCI (offline starting 7/9), Torrance, Harbor City, Newport Beach, Emeryville, Thousand Palms (limited access), West Sacramento

Re-Opening Stations [2]: Fountain Valley (targeting 7/10), LAX

Fully Constructed, in commissioning [3]: Diamond Bar, West LA -SM Blvd, CSULA (Hyundai customers can fuel here from my understanding)

In Construction [7]: Chino, Santa Monica, South SF, San Juan Capistrano, Truckee, Long Beach, Coalinga

Approved to Build [3] : LA - Bev Blvd, UCI, Woodland Hills

Planning Approval [8]: Costa Mesa, Hayward, La Canada Flintridge, Lake Forest, San Jose, Santa Barbara, Woodside, Ontario

We have 14 other stations in permitting, with 11 more in various stages of pre-permitting.

And they cannot get fuel... :roll:

 

[bruin nut]

And let me just add this... you're basically like the meth dealer telling everyone it's good for you and peddling your warez. Saying H2 is everywhere and IT'S AWESOME!

That's a terrific analogy. Thanks for equating my desire to try a different type of green technology to being a meth dealer. The level of discourse here makes me feel so included and welcome. I can't wait to come back for more objective and informative analysis. (Hint: that's sarcasm)

You know, just because I am considering a FCV does not mean I'm challenging any of you or your choices. I would appreciate not being called names nor being ridiculed and vilified. You guys are coming off like a bunch of A-holes. Did I personally attack any of you or your choices? What's the deal with you people!

 

[JasonA]

No, I think you're bias towards the Mirai because you see "FREE FUEL" from Toyota... you've said things (among others)

The pickup was very similar to the RAV 4 EV.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

When EVERY OTHER source has said...

C&D magazine...

the Mirai drives no differently than a normal battery-electric vehicle, which is to say it feels heavy, synthetic, and utterly free of drama. On our brief drive opportunity in Newport Beach, California, we noted acceleration that starts out spry but drops off drastically as one approaches highway speeds. Toyota’s claim that the Mirai can hit 60 mph in nine seconds flat is entirely believable based on our short bursts of acceleration and our brief freeway hop, although we’ll have to take Toyota’s word that it can touch 111 mph, as we never saw more than 75.

:lol:
http://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/mirai

Power delivery from the 153-hp electric motor is a bit on the sluggish side as it attempts to motivate this 4,100-pound, Camry-sized car. Still, the suspension soaks up bumps well, and handling is not that much different from a Prius.

:lol:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2015/04/2016-toyota-mirai-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car/index.htm

and a sense of heaviness while accelerating that belies its claimed 9-second 0-60 mph time (a boon to ride quality, though). This isn't a terribly powerful electric motor; the Mirai doesn't snap off the line like many EVs. But it nevertheless accelerates with an enchantingly fluid motion. Depress the pedal more deeply and you'll provoke a noticeable (but not objectionable) whine from the compressor delivering air to the fuel cell (this able to compensate for elevations up to 3,000 feet).

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1412_2016_toyota_mirai_first_drive/specs.html

Sew....needle pulling thread...

You're getting an overweight Camry...
An underpowered Prius...
And very little places to fill up..

And it's ALOT slower then the Rav :roll:

BTW.. one thing that has always questioned me, I love taking trips to the Sierra's, Western side especially! Shaver Lake & Huntington Lake. Have already done it in the Rav on L2 multiple times and now can do it easily with L3.

How does the Mirai handle 8k feet+ elevation? or thin air?

Point to this needle is.. Toyota has sold you. That's fine...

Don't fall into what's happen to the Hyundai owners... they seem pretty upset/disappointed.

Good luck with your car! I just hate seeing a car company bail out on people after a sale.

 

[TonyWilliams]

First, being critical of your hydrogen choice is not outside the terms of agreement to use the forum. I don't see name calling. Saying hydrogen is dumb is not name calling.

As to hydrogen in the real south land, there are 3 million people in San Diego, and we are the third largest metro area in California. Doesn't it seem odd that we would get exactly one fool cell station (planned) while LA already has several with more planned?

I suspect that the mindset is the station is not for San Diego hydrogen drivers at all, and I will be surprised if Toyota / Hyundai / Honda (and now Fiat / Chrysler / Masarati !!!) sell any H2 cars here before 2020.

Previous maps (that I have posted here in the past) showed not even a single station planned for San Diego.

I had no idea about the 3000 feet elevation issue... I can only imagine how low the power goes at 8000 feet (or does it run at all?).

Anyhoo, the simple facts are that many (myself included) find hydrogen to be a distraction from getting us off fossil fuels.

1) Hydrogen is and will continue to be made from fossil fuels, largely extracted using fracking. No thanks. You're welcome to support that; I won't.

2) Hydrogen is grossly expensive per mile compared to both electricity and gasoline powered cars. That's why Toyota and Hyundai must give it away... you likely wouldn't consider the car if you weren't getting free traveling, but instead had to pay $13.99 per kg (the price right now in Diamond Bar).

3) The long, long list of other hydrogen issues.

Buy a Prius and put less CO2 in the atmosphere, if you don't want an EV.

Don't expect to be on an EV site and be coddled with your hydrogen car.

 

[fromport]

Thanks for equating my desire to try a different type of green technology

You have been given a series of facts to which you don't seem to want to respond:
-photo's of closed hydrogen stations
-overview of hydrogen vs battery ev's
and a lot more

The level of discourse here makes me feel so included and welcome. I can't wait to come back for more objective and informative analysis. (Hint: that's sarcasm)

You started given us a label "hostile" in the first place

You know, just because I am considering a FCV does not mean I'm challenging any of you or your choices. I would appreciate not being called names nor being ridiculed and vilified. You guys are coming off like a bunch of A-holes. Did I personally attack any of you or your choices? What's the deal with you people!

What is the deal with you ?
You show all the symptoms of a Troll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

 

[fromport]

Toyota Tackles Hydrogen Fueling Challenges As Mirai Launch Approaches: UPDATED

But Toyota notes that those stations aren't "ready for prime time," and wouldn't necessarily be capable of fueling a new Mirai.
"I often say that the infrastructure is a generation behind the vehicle," Scott said. He is Toyota's national alternative fuels manager.

and

On the subject of hydrogen, it turns out that Toyota doesn’t actually provide free hydrogen to Mirai owners for three years.

The limit to those with a lease is $15,000, which works well for lease buyers because they are limited to 12,000 miles a year. For buyers of the Mirai, Toyota provides a $15,000 reduction in the purchase price.

She promised that the cost of hydrogen would be going down; no timetable was given.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...fueling-challenges-as-mirai-launch-approaches

ps: good luck ;-)

 

[JasonA]

Good luck with your Mirai... :roll: (NOTE!! These are all 15-24hrs)

Please note that the status light is "red" at Shell Newport Beach, but the low pressure fill is still operational. They are working to resolve the alarm.

TORRANCE station is LOW PRESSURE. I only received an 80% fill. Plus... One pump is down

Have been trying to contact Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell concierge for the past 30 minutes and every time it goes to a hold for multiple minutes and then either goes to an AARP towing recording asking me if I want to join AARP (what??), or just disconnects without anyone answering. Over and over, so we can't find out if we should drive out to OCSD to fuel or not. CaFCP site says 700 bar is online at OCSD, but also says that they are getting inconsistent status readings from that station too. Isn't this why we have the concierge line??

very bummed to hear you can no longer share information about the hydrogen stauptus as that has been a hurge help to us! Greg, totally agree with your comment! Interesting that when we leased our FCEV we were told the concierge would be available 24 / 7 and very recently concierge sent out a reminder that they prefer us to contact them before contacting Air Products or any other station management. But hard to follow the policy if there is no response!

 

[fromport]

Good luck with your Mirai... :roll: (NOTE!! These are all 15-24hrs)

Facts deleted for bravery
Jason,
You should know by now that posting facts is considered hostile behavior.
Please stop :twisted:

 

[Incredulocious]

Why Do Fuel-Cell Vehicles Make Electric-Car Advocates So Crazy?
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099288_who-do-fuel-cell-vehicles-make-electric-car-advocates-so-crazy

Regular readers of Green Car Reports should, by this point, be familiar with many of the points raised by electric-car advocates against fuel-cell vehicles. They include:

- The higher carbon footprint per mile required to drive on hydrogen versus using the same energy to recharge a battery-powered car;
- The substantial cost (in the billions of dollars) of creating even regional hydrogen fueling networks, let alone a ubiquitous North American network that would give the same coverage as today's gas stations do;
- The concern that hydrogen will end up costing roughly the same per mile as gasoline, while electricity's cost-per-mile to the consumer is usually lower, and often three to five times lower;
- The belief that automakers are using hydrogen vehicles as a delaying tactic to retard the world's inevitable transition to electric vehicles powered from the grid;
- The belief that "Big Oil" is behind hydrogen vehicles as a way to maintain its market for fossil fuels, since most hydrogen today is made from natural gas; and even numerous anti-electric car statements and advertisements by Toyota, a main proponent of hydrogen fuel cells.

These are all worthwhile issues to explore. What we don't understand is the intensity and rawness of the debate (to put it politely).
...perhaps with a better and lower-carbon future in sight, there's fear that the message--a hard one enough one to deliver as it is--will be muddied.

I certainly don't want to see fuel cells derail the current momentum to develop and produce the much more efficient and simple pure battery electric vehicles for which we can even produce our own "fuel". I do not want to swap buying gasoline for buying hydrogen nor do I want to see us wasting electricity to do so. Hence, yes, I'm very negative towards fuel cells for personal transportation and don't want to see folks fall for this or encourage its adoption.