How much do you pay in electricity to charge your car

[miimura]

In a larger sense Solar could be a disruptive factor for public utilities and they are now lobbying for changes that might eliminate some of the above benefits. We need to watch that issue closely, because what is disruptive for public utilities could be positive for society as a whole. On the other hand we do need public utilities to store our solar production during the day and deliver it back to us efficiently when we need it at other times of the day.

In California's "deregulated" environment, the Public Utilities Commission is very important. The utilities are not responsible for maintaining the balance between demand and generation any more, the Independent System Operator (ISO) has that responsibility. So, while residential solar results in much less revenue for the utilities, it plays an important role in shaving the peak generation requirement on summer afternoons. So, IMHO, the CPUC has to balance the benefits of solar to the grid with the cost of maintaining the grid across all customers. I feel that this can be accomplished with careful application of TOU rates and demand charges. Eventually, large customers that have unavoidable demand that coincides with the grid peak will find it cost effective to apply solar, stationary energy storage or cogeneration to avoid the peak charges. Some may feel that they are "gaming the system" but they are providing a tangible benefit to the grid by doing it.

 

[eplantz]

Electricity costs here in Illinois are generally flat-rate and for me, in suburban Chicago, the complete cost (energy and distribution) is 9.25 cents per Kwh.

 

[Ampster]

Electricity costs here in Illinois are generally flat-rate and for me, in suburban Chicago, the complete cost (energy and distribution) is 9.25 cents per Kwh.

Well, a lot of good deregulation did us in California. LOL

 

[Dsinned]

Wouldn't a solar pv system cost in the 10's of thousands?

My brother just bought his PV solar system for ~$12K, 4kw system, before federal incentives, or ~$9k after.

If you have $9k upfront, it is well worth the investment, IMHO, esp. to offset your gasser car with an EV. This offset could be as much as $2k/yr depending on your annual use for your EV versus even a Prius. ie. payback period is ~4.5 yrs, then after that it's just considered free tax-free return. ($2k return on $9k investment is over 20% -- where else can you get that tax free?!)

This is essentially the same scenario I had. I purchased a relatively small PV system (4.25kW) outright, and with two EVs being charged regularly at home, my cost is effectively ZERO, plus the extra savings in gasoline by not driving ICE cars anymore. My PV installer in the SF Bay Area was Petersen Dean and they sell "starter" PV systems (1.5kW) for as little as $5000 fully installed, and if you reroof at the same time, the solar system is FREE!

 

[edmc]

Well, a lot of good deregulation did us in California. LOL

Hard to read the depth of the cynicism in this statement... .

In CA, the CPUC certainly considers themselves a regulating body. Indeed, the CPUC is in the throws of hopefully approving the latest rate plan for PG&E that includes in its proposed changes the new EV-A & EV-B rate plans that remove the painful usage tiering from the time-of-use plans (e.g. EV-6A, EV-9A) that kind of discourage charging an EV at home overnight right now.

 

[miimura]

Well, a lot of good deregulation did us in California. LOL

Hard to read the depth of the cynicism in this statement... .

In CA, the CPUC certainly considers themselves a regulating body. Indeed, the CPUC is in the throws of hopefully approving the latest rate plan for PG&E that includes in its proposed changes the new EV-A & EV-B rate plans that remove the painful usage tiering from the time-of-use plans (e.g. EV-6A, EV-9A) that kind of discourage charging an EV at home overnight right now.

There is no question that the proposed EV rates are wonderful for those without solar. Since I have solar, I'm pretty sure I will go back to E-6 if they take away E-9A. However, I have not completed my analysis. I should have a full year of solar generation by the time Schedule EV is enacted and I'll probably have more than a year with the RAV before they start taking away E-9.

Tiering on E-1 is bad too. It's not just the TOU rates that get painful at higher usage levels.

With reference to the Chicago rates mentioned above - I wouldn't even think about solar with less than 10 cents/kWh flat rate pricing.

 

[Ampster]

Well, a lot of good deregulation did us in California. LOL

Hard to read the depth of the cynicism in this statement... .

In CA, the CPUC certainly considers themselves a regulating body. Indeed, the CPUC is in the throws of hopefully approving the latest rate plan for PG&E that includes in its proposed changes the new EV-A & EV-B rate plans that remove the painful usage tiering from the time-of-use plans (e.g. EV-6A, EV-9A) that kind of discourage charging an EV at home overnight right now.

The cynicism has some history. Twenty years ago I was President of a local chamber of commerce and as such was identified as one of many community leaders by SCE. We were given tours of their facilities, including several days in the Sierras inspecting their hydroelectric facilities and many opportunities to hear the benefits of deregulation. As expected their lobbyists efforts paid off and the California legislature deregulated the public utilities. Clearly we didn't see the opportunity for someone like Enron to game the system and that may be what contributed to higher rates in California. I honestly don't know, but I do know that caveat emptor still exists and as a consumer and now a solar generator I need to be aware of what is the best pricing plan for my circumstances.
One of the things that is different than twenty years ago is forums like these where we can all benefit from sharing knowledge.

 

[evbuddy]

Question on PGE E9A and baseline. I have PV.

As long as my monthly PGE use is less than the baseline, regardless of what time of day PGE is used instead of PV, I will be charged @ E9A Tier 1 of ~4c/KW?

Thanks.

 

[miimura]

Question on PGE E9A and baseline. I have PV.

As long as my monthly PGE use is less than the baseline, regardless of what time of day PGE is used instead of PV, I will be charged @ E9A Tier 1 of ~4c/KW?

Thanks.

As long as your total net usage for the billed month is below baseline, each of your TOU usage amounts will be billed at Tier 1 rate. So, if you charge your car between midnight and 7am, you will only pay 3.855 cents/kWh.

In this sample the net usage is 277.34 kWh and the baseline is 319 kWh. Off-Peak usage of 382.67 kWh is more than the baseline. However, the entire Off-Peak usage is charged the Tier 1 Off-Peak rate. So, my car charging and all other overnight loads cost a total of $14.75 for the sample month's billing period.

 

[evbuddy]

Great! thanks.

PGE Solar Customer Care confirmed the same.

 

[Bassman]

On PG&E's EV-9B TOU with separate meter- typically cost me $35 to $40 for driving 2000 miles per month, but I also charge for free at work which covers about 40% of the electricity. If I had to pay for it all, it would be about $65-$70/ month ($0.035/mile).

 

[edmc]

There is no question that the proposed EV rates are wonderful for those without solar. Since I have solar, I'm pretty sure I will go back to E-6 if they take away E-9A.

As explained to me when I converted from "tiered" E-1 to the "tiered" + TOU E-9A, when the EV-A rate becomes available, all those on E-9A will be given the option to switch... but will be grandfathered in if they'd wish to stay on the E-9A rate.

I'm curious, though... as I read it the EV-A TOU-only rates are so punitive during the peak hours that I gathered EV-A to actually be better than E-9A. Good luck with your analysis.

 

[cwerdna]

Nothing to charge my Leaf, so far... There's free L2 juice @ my new work. I might be L1 charging at home, on occasion @ PG&E's ripoff rates. I'm on E-6 Smart, for now.

 

[miimura]

There is no question that the proposed EV rates are wonderful for those without solar. Since I have solar, I'm pretty sure I will go back to E-6 if they take away E-9A.

As explained to me when I converted from "tiered" E-1 to the "tiered" + TOU E-9A, when the EV-A rate becomes available, all those on E-9A will be given the option to switch... but will be grandfathered in if they'd wish to stay on the E-9A rate.

I'm curious, though... as I read it the EV-A TOU-only rates are so punitive during the peak hours that I gathered EV-A to actually be better than E-9A. Good luck with your analysis.

I heard that they may not grandfather forever - maybe 12/18/24 months only. However, people still have E-7 that was closed to new customers years ago, so who knows...

 

[miimura]

I posted an analysis in the PG&E Rates thread here. It found that a smaller home that uses less than 500kWh/month can add 1,000 miles of EV charging for about $60/month which is about 6 cents/mile if you change to the new Schedule EV rate plan in PG&E territory. If your usage is already higher, your incremental cost of EV charging will likely be less.

 

[dr_gibberish]

FYI, we went with Solarcity to install our leased solar power system and we definitely paid less on our lease than we did in electricity before it was installed. However, we are relatively high power users, and our roof is ideally situated for solar (virtually no trees shading it). I should also note that last I heard Solarcity was VERY backed up with installs and it was taking 2-3 months before they could get the panels up.

The question is how charging the car will affect those rates, and we are not sure yet. We have switched to EV-A as of last week and if I understand correctly, given that we sell electricity back during the day when rates are highest, and charge the car at night when rates are low, the net effect on our bill should be very small. However, if I also understand correctly, that is averaged across the whole year before they figure your final bill. (People with solar pay PG&E once a year.) In other words, they add up all your usage during peak hours, all during partial peak, and all during off peak (for the whole year) and then multiply it by the rates for those times and figure your bill. From what I can see, it sure looks like we are net energy producers during peak hours, so that net positive will be balanced by our off peak usage at less than a third of that rate. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like if we are careful about daytime usage, we could easily come out ahead...

 

[miimura]

FYI, we went with Solarcity to install our leased solar power system and we definitely paid less on our lease than we did in electricity before it was installed. However, we are relatively high power users, and our roof is ideally situated for solar (virtually no trees shading it). I should also note that last I heard Solarcity was VERY backed up with installs and it was taking 2-3 months before they could get the panels up.

The question is how charging the car will affect those rates, and we are not sure yet. We have switched to EV-A as of last week and if I understand correctly, given that we sell electricity back during the day when rates are highest, and charge the car at night when rates are low, the net effect on our bill should be very small. However, if I also understand correctly, that is averaged across the whole year before they figure your final bill. (People with solar pay PG&E once a year.) In other words, they add up all your usage during peak hours, all during partial peak, and all during off peak (for the whole year) and then multiply it by the rates for those times and figure your bill. From what I can see, it sure looks like we are net energy producers during peak hours, so that net positive will be balanced by our off peak usage at less than a third of that rate. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like if we are careful about daytime usage, we could easily come out ahead...

Month by month PG&E will send you a separate statement that will calculate your energy charges for that month. You will be able to see a positive or negative kWh number for each TOU period - Peak, Part-Peak, and off Off-Peak and a total energy charge for that month. Those energy charges will be accumulated until your anniversary date, when it will be transferred to your regular PG&E bill. If your final net dollars are negative but your net energy usage is positive, the small negative dollars will be wiped out. If your net dollars and net energy is negative, meaning that you over-generated, you will be paid something less than 4 cents/kWh for the surplus energy. PG&E has some approved formula for how to calculate that.

My understanding is that Solar City Power Purchase Agreements also settle up at the end of the year. They estimate a monthly payment and then at the end of the year if the system produced more than they estimated, you pay more. If it under-produced, they refund some money. I think your agreement has a fixed price per kWh that you pay them.

 

[Dsinned]

Also, on the new EV-A plan, your electricity consumption is charged at "non-tiered" TOU rates for electric vehicle households. There are still three different rate periods, "peak", "partial peak" and "off peak", and two sets of rates for each depending on whether it is for Summer or Winter rates. Off Peak rates will start an hour earlier on weekdays (11pm to 7am) than before on E9-A. Off peak rates on weekends will be longer, excluding 3-7pm when peak rates apply.

Fortunately, I always try to charge my EVs on weekends, so this will make it easier to pay the lowest rates, as well as avoiding possible "hiccups" with the RAV4 EV's scheduled charging. Off peak rates, whether Summer or Winter, wil be slightly under 10 cents per kWh. A typical full recharge of my Chevy Volt consumes about 13kWh, so that will cost about $1.30 on weekends. To recharge my RAV4 EV, I rarely use more than 25kWh, so that will cost about $2.50 on weekends. For my wife and I to drive both cars as we typically drive them, it will cost us roughly less than $5/week, or $20/month, or less than $250/year per 250kWh consumed for EV charging purposes. However, we have solar and are generating more than we use, so our actual charging costs should be essentially nil.

Not quite, as there is also an EV-A "minimum (service?) charge" of $0.14784 per day, or ~$4.50 per month. If net usage is zero (or negative), from month to month, I guess all I have to pay is the latter, which is nearly the same paid now on PG&E's E9-A "EV" rate plan. The original proposal was to increase the E9-A monthly "customer charge" to $8.00, but that was before the new EV rate plan was finally approved and took its place.

So, there you have it! With a renewable energy source (rooftop solar), all it costs to have TWO EVs available to drive in my household is about $50 per year! Before I got my two EVs, the same amount of (mostly city) driving in ICE cars that averaged about 15mpg combined, would have cost ~50 times as much in gasoline.

Another way to look at it, the cost of my solar system (~$11k after federal tax credit) should be a wash in about 4+ years just based on the energy cost savings of charging my EVs vs. refueling ICE cars with gasoline. :mrgreen:

 

[Ampster]

I had an unusual situation with my solar system that I thought I would share. (Mods, feel free to move this if there is a more relevant solar thread)

My inverter went off line and put out an error message saying the AC voltage was too high. I measure the voltage and it was 253 volts. I checked a few places and found that was outside the spec for utility voltage so I placed a call to SCE, gave them the reading and asked them if that was considered high. They replied yes and said they would send someone out right away. A supervisor called me about 11PM to tell me that they wouldn't be able to get there until 3am but wanted to make sure my equipment was ok. I told him that the next day was ok and today they came, measured the voltage at the meters in my building, and then did something to a transformer somewhere and the voltage was back to normal. Apparently they dial up a high voltage transformer somewhere out there during the summer and maybe during the autumn transition it didn't get dialed back.

I knew we had ocassional brownouts caused by low voltage but I had always thought our electrical grid was pretty stable on the up side.

 

[Dsinned]

Hmmm . . . 253Vac is definitely on the high side. What kind of solar array inverter(s) do you have? My Enphase microinverters will tolerate up to 264Vac, but I believe "nominal" is considered 240Vac (with a tolerance of +/-10%) in most continental U.S. locations. Fortunately, the grid's line voltage to my house is fairly stable over the range of 230 to 240Vac. It seldom ever fluctuates any lower or higher, and I don't live near any industrial load centers.