Goodbye, So long and Good Luck

[AvLegends]

Well, with check in my hand I wish all of you the best of luck with your cars. I unfortunately got a car that after 16 months did not meet my expectations for long term reliability. After failures and replacements of the gateway ECU (with numerous EV death screens), the HV charger, 2 motor drive train replacements as well as unexplained 12V auxiliary battery failures I, with the help of an excellent lemon law attorney, successfully negotiated with Toyota the repurchase of my 2012 Rav4 EV.

The tow truck driver even new me by name, LOL!

I'm on to the next automotive journey...

Hey Dennis, you still selling that Vette?

 

[JasonA]

Sorry to hear this. Just out of curiosity, how many miles did you have on it? Being a 2012 model and just having the motor replaced in my 2014 Rav and talking with the one of only a few techs that does almost all of them for the majority Carson EV's that go in & out through there, he told me that "the drivetrain unit just went under redesign and into the field in mid 2014 so any swaps before that were still the old design"

If you went through 2 motors, then you probably had 2 old Tesla units which had the faulty gear lash/noise issue. As for chargers and gateways.. well that's too bad. Chargers dieing out is a rarity. I bet it was a glitch somewhere else but it shouldn't be your problem.

Model X or S maybe?

 

[AvLegends]

I had 16K miles at time of repurchase. The first drive train was replaced at 7500 miles and the second one was right around 15K last September. The gateway ECU failed around 1800 miles and the HV charger failed around 4200 miles. With all the issues I had almost 90 days loss of use in the shop.

The real gipper for me was the 12V aux. battery failures that could not be diagnosed. I was in the middle of the law suit and was to be scheduled for a deposition by opposing council when the second aux. battery failure occurred. Within 2 days the attorney called and told me Toyota had agreed to repurchase the car.

As I was told Toyota had retained a "very aggressive" law firm to defend this case. Every body told me they didn't stand a snowball's chance in hell as my position was clearly presented in all the service records... but I never had been involved in a jury trial before and I knew it wouldn't be a pleasant experience. As time went by my attitude changed and I started getting pissed off at Toyota's arrogance. I told myself... "pack your bags Toyota... lets rock and roll"! Over the last 20 or so years I had either myself or thru bringing family members to the brand, purchased over 10 new Toyota cars... yes I truly believed in the brand and considered myself a good customer. This is how I was treated as a good customer. I guess the Toyota corporate bean counting executives are clueless to things like this. I don't know if I will ever buy another Toyota.

The most interesting thing was meeting with the guy that took the car back in. He had worked for 40+ years for one of the big three automakers in the position of making the decision of whether to fight the customer with the lemon law car or, as he said "do the right thing" and buy the car back. He said some of the manufactures just don't get it and fight aggressively. He said that he has seen cases that go to trial really piss the jury off and award the plaintiff several hundred thousand dollars in punitive damages. He also said he has seen just about every type of car made come back as a lemon. I ask if he had seen the Rav4 EV and he rolled his eyes and said "oh yeah". He then told me that the most common type of vehicles he has seen for buybacks are the hybrids and electric cars.

I'm now looking at the new C7 Corvette... maybe the new supercharged Z06. 0 to 60 in 2.9 seconds sounds kinda fun...

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'm now looking at the new C7 Corvette... maybe the new supercharged Z06. 0 to 60 in 2.9 seconds sounds kinda fun...

You do know that a Tesla Model S - P85D will do 2.8 seconds with a future firmware update? Tesla has world class customer service, because the cars certainly have their issues that need attention.

Are you going to keep the Clipper Creek at the hangar?

Also, please share your attorney's name for those of us that may need him in the future.

 

[cwerdna]

As time went by my attitude changed and I started getting pissed off at Toyota's arrogance. I told myself... "pack your bags Toyota... lets rock and roll"! Over the last 20 or so years I had either myself or thru bringing family members to the brand, purchased over 10 new Toyota cars... yes I truly believed in the brand and considered myself a good customer. This is how I was treated as a good customer. I guess the Toyota corporate bean counting executives are clueless to things like this. I don't know if I will ever buy another Toyota.

It really is too bad. Unreliable Toyotas are generally not the norm. Between my parents and myself, we've had 4 of them, all bought new. They were all pretty reliable except my dad's 02 ICE Rav4 eventually developed expensive trouble well after the original warranty expired and unfortunately, he developed ECM trouble after he was ineligible for http://www.rav4ecmsettlement.com/CaseInfo.aspx?pas=RAV4ECMSettlement. After the ECM was replaced, he later got a check engine light again and it was diagnosed as needing a new cat.

I figure they're pretty decent but I'd start looking for a replacement after they hit the 12 year mark or so... My mom's former 96 Camry (bought new) was virtually trouble-free until it was totaled in early 08. In the time she had it, it had less trouble than my 04 Nissan 350Z which I had until mid-2011. (Not that the Z was unreliable... it had a few issues that were fixed under warranty.)

Except for the Rav4 EV, I hardly ever hear of anyone w/an unreliable Toyota/Lexus. Compare that to say VW...

The most interesting thing was meeting with the guy that took the car back in. He had worked for 40+ years for one of the big three automakers in the position of making the decision of whether to fight the customer with the lemon law car or, as he said "do the right thing" and buy the car back. He said some of the manufactures just don't get it and fight aggressively. He said that he has seen cases that go to trial really piss the jury off and award the plaintiff several hundred thousand dollars in punitive damages. He also said he has seen just about every type of car made come back as a lemon. I ask if he had seen the Rav4 EV and he rolled his eyes and said "oh yeah". He then told me that the most common type of vehicles he has seen for buybacks are the hybrids and electric cars.

Your last statement is interesting. I wonder which models. Leaf reliability has been pretty good. Toyota hybrid reliability has been pretty good. (I'm a Prius fan and used to follow Priuschat.com quite closely.)

OTOH, Ford C-Max Hybrid and Energi reliability were AWFUL at one point in Consumer Reports.

 

[AvLegends]

Yeah I have seen the P85D performance specs but I have to say my experience with the Tesla powered Rav4 EV has left a very bad taste in my mouth with regard to Tesla. Let's face it the problem with these cars from a reliability standpoint is not Toyotas side of things... it's with the Tesla side. And with the lack of willingness to fix these cars in a timely manner well... you guys know the story.

The CS-60 is coming out and going to be for sale. It was upgraded to the heavier ITT 75 or 80 amp cord and connector if anybody is interested. I guess I had a Model S in my sights at the time... oh well...

My attorney was with the Bickel Law Firm. Brian Bickel is the head guy with my attorney being Aaron D. Fhima. The phone number is 619-374-4100. Very professional and well respected.

 

[AvLegends]

The guy taking the car back said the absolute worst manufacturer (from a customer standpoint) to deal with was Porsche... they will not admit that they produced a lemon.

 

[cwerdna]

The guy taking the car back said the absolute worst manufacturer (from a customer standpoint) to deal with was Porsche... they will not admit that they produced a lemon.

Interesting... I could understand Toyota/Lexus also playing hardball since they have a very good reliability record and I suspect their rate of lemons is far below that of any American and European automaker while comparable to say Honda/Acura.

Re: Tesla, yeah... their bits seem to mostly be at fault w/the Rav4 EV and well, if you frequent teslamotorsclub.com, you'll see plenty of drive unit replacements (mainly due to noise) and a not so insignificant # of battery pack replacements (often due to a contactor failing inside?).

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/29834-Drive-Unit-Replacement-Poll is one of many threads on Model S drive unit replacement. Maybe skip to 10 pages from the end and read forward...

 

[fooljoe]

Re: Tesla, yeah... their bits seem to mostly be at fault w/the Rav4 EV

This is a good point. As much as Toyota deserves to be dragged through the mud for "fighting aggressively" and not just doing the right thing, in all fairness all of your problems were likely due to Tesla components (I'm guessing the 12V battery failures were due to a bad DC/DC converter.)

The real problem here is the clumsy Toyota/Tesla "partnership" that resulted in the Rav4-EV. If you had Tesla components in a Tesla car, you'd probably still feel great about the car even with the same number of failures, because their customer service and competence in getting things fixed would be that much better (not to mention that you probably wouldn't mind the Roadster loaner whenever your car was in the shop.)

But Toyota is (understandably, maybe?) bitter about having to make the Rav4-EV compliance car in the first place, and so this sort of thing is not really a surprise.

 

[ChrisMtn]

I'm now looking at the new C7 Corvette... maybe the new supercharged Z06. 0 to 60 in 2.9 seconds sounds kinda fun...

Shows what kind of a driver you are right there. I say get another one and prove its not the driver.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I say get another one and prove its not the driver.

Well, the one you want now is the one with a late 2014 motor swap or newer. My 2014 with a grand total of 13 months of service just got its new motor.

My 2012 will likely get motor number two soon.

 

[AvLegends]

I'm now looking at the new C7 Corvette... maybe the new supercharged Z06. 0 to 60 in 2.9 seconds sounds kinda fun...

Shows what kind of a driver you are right there. I say get another one and prove its not the driver.

Huh? Not sure what you are trying to say? Do you think my driving contributed to my vehicle failures, LOL! Your really kidding, right?

After over 90 days in the shop for warranty repairs... some of which were never fully diagnosed, do you really think I would be stupid enough to buy another one?

Hell, after seeing how Toyota was going to drag me through a jury trial rather than step up and do the right thing ( in the beginning of my lemon law claim) I can assure you I WILL NEVER BUY ANOTHER TOYOTA!! THEY CAN GO F*** THEMSELVES! They are truly out for themselves!

I've had Corvettes for 40+ years... the last one being a supercharged Z06 with over 650hp.

You obviously have no clue with driving high performance cars. Good luck with your Rav!

 

[jimbo69ny]

Would you mind updating our owners list? We would really appreciate it!!! It's quick and easy. There is a link to a very short questionnaire in the first post of this thread.
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1300

Thank you in advance!!

 

[surfingslovak]

My attorney was with the Bickel Law Firm. Brian Bickel is the head guy with my attorney being Aaron D. Fhima. The phone number is 619-374-4100. Very professional and well respected.

Here is another vote for the Bickel Law Firm. I worked with Melanie Takii and Erika Kavicky there. In my experience, they are very effective and great to deal with. They came recommended by another ActiveE driver turned RAV4 EV owner. Erika helped him persuade GM to repurchase his first-gen Volt. Needless to say that he was happy to recommend them. I'm not sure if this owner is reading the RAV4 forum, but if he is, thank you so much for the recommendation, Joel!

 

[surfingslovak]

Hell, after seeing how Toyota was going to drag me through a jury trial rather than step up and do the right thing ( in the beginning of my lemon law claim) I can assure you I WILL NEVER BUY ANOTHER TOYOTA!! THEY CAN GO F*** THEMSELVES! They are truly out for themselves!

So sorry to hear about your ordeal. Some of us were exposed to Nissan's tactics in the face of the rapidly evolving battery degradation story, and thing did not look great there either. At some point, there was a change of heart, but it did not come quick or easy. As far as I know, Nissan hired a firm monitoring our owner's forum too. I'm glad that in the end cooler heads prevailed, but I can empathize with those less fortunate.

I spent the last three years driving BMW EVs, and in my experience, their reliability records left something to be desired. I was under the impression that the company did what was in its power to improve their vehicles, and they took care of the affected drivers. I did not have to hire a lawyer or make a deposition. They reacted much sooner than that, and the settlement was unexpectedly generous.

 

[AvLegends]

Went in to DCH Toyota of Oxnard, my EV dealer yesterday and was greeted by all the big wigs, GM, sales mgr, service mgr and others as they walked by... was treated like a rock star. I think they wanted to sell me a new vehicle. Ask them if they knew about the EV repurchase and they all said "yes". The used car manager said "Michael, come over here, I want to show you something... walked me over to a Model S in the showroom. It was a beautiful car in new condition but I told him I was done with EV's for a while. Told him that I just got a smoking deal on a 2010 supercharged Corvette ZR1... Amazing car! Gonna "row thru the gears" for awhile.

 

[AvLegends]

My attorney was with the Bickel Law Firm. Brian Bickel is the head guy with my attorney being Aaron D. Fhima. The phone number is 619-374-4100. Very professional and well respected.

Here is another vote for the Bickel Law Firm. I worked with Melanie Takii and Erika Kavicky there. In my experience, they are very effective and great to deal with. They came recommended by another ActiveE driver turned RAV4 EV owner. Erika helped him persuade GM to repurchase his first-gen Volt. Needless to say that he was happy to recommend them. I'm not sure if this owner is reading the RAV4 forum, but if he is, thank you so much for the recommendation, Joel!

Yes, worked with Erica and Melanie as well... all first class. Very professional! They were a little more expensive than others I interviewed but I chose them based upon recommendations from others here on the forum. Glad I did as things worked out in my favor.

 

[4EVEREV]

I heard some old EV folk lore that if you secretly pine over gas guzzling ICE vehicles your EV will retaliate on you. :lol:

 

[AvLegends]

I heard some old EV folk lore that if you secretly pine over gas guzzling ICE vehicles your EV will retaliate on you. :lol:

Not here... I gave my EV a fair chance and it bit me anyway. This is my real gas guzzler... a 450hp Pratt & Whitney R985 powered 1938 Howard DGA-11 burning a thirsty 22 gal per hour at cruise.
Heres my old gas guzzler I just sold after 12 years...

Here's the new ZR1 gas guzzler...

 

[dstjohn99]

Nice wings!!