Convince me to buy this car over a LEAF

[mhkp]

OMG! I was at the Simi dealership last night and almost leased one of these. I thought i'd read up on this website before closing the deal. This thread is like a big red light.

I read the whole thread and if I'm correct all the affected RAVs are 2012 models. Is this correct?

Karen, when I was at the dealership yesterday I was surprised at how uninformed everyone was about the RAVev. Let me know if the service people are more educated on this product.

I'm so disappointed. I so wanted this SUV because with 3 kids its ideal, BUT if i got stuck on the road with this issue and three kids with me, I'd cry!

Can anyone convince me to still get this SUV over a LEAF? please...

 

[yblaser]

I would say that the Check EV System error is a very generic error similar to a check engine light in an ICE vehicle. Not everyone in this thread that has gotten this error has the same root problem.

In terms of having a reliable car, this is a bit of a Franken-car that has a very limited production run so I don't think it is ever going to be as reliable as most mass produced cars. That said, most of the people who have had this error have been able to restart the car by cycling the power several times. The one report of a person who had the car disable the motor while in motion was the most concerning to me. I'm transporting a 5 month old to work with me everyday and I certainly would prefer not to get stranded, but if does happen it certainly is not going to be the end of the world.

 

[mhkp]

Agreed not end of world, but nuisance to have your car in the shop for a month.

Is this limited to 2012 models? Since I'd be getting a 2013 it would give me some peace of mind.

 

[yblaser]

Agreed not end of world, but nuisance to have your car in the shop for a month.

Is this limited to 2012 models? Since I'd be getting a 2013 it would give me some peace of mind.

Having your car in the shop for a month must be beyond frustrating, especially if you are leasing. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to your question and even if only 2012 have had problems to date, with the more limited number of 2013 out and at lower mileage it probably would not mean much. Not to mention that there really is no difference between the 12 and 13. While it's possible Toyota or Tesla has introduced a process change in their manufacturing to fix problems, I would guess it wouldn't necessary coincide with the model year change.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Can anyone convince me to still get this SUV over a LEAF? please...

How far are you driving per day?

 

[cwerdna]

The range of the Rav4 EV blows away the Leaf. Tony can tell you all about that.

The Rav4 EV is also MUCH faster, brakes in a shorter distance and did better on the 2 handling related tests at the bottom of http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/testing-electric-vehicles-in-the-real-world.html.

For me, the downside is that the Rav4 EV is much more expensive to buy/lease, has no CHAdeMO port (nor any DC fast charge capability) and questionable reliability. The last part is unusual for a Toyota and it seems the Tesla bits are to blame... It has WAY more battery capacity than I'd need for my current commute but yet still not quite enough range to eliminate my ICEV completely (again, lack of CHAdeMO port is a downer).

 

[BloomRAV4_EV]

We've got both, 2013 model years on both. Same Aerovironment 30A portable charger charges both. I've put over 600 miles on "my" RAV4 in the two weeks since I bought it, and I haven't checked the odometer on "her" Leaf but I know it's seen near daily use despite the rest of the family being on summer vacation (negating the need for her to commute and run the kids to school).

Vague arguments for the Leaf:
(Optional) CHAdeMO charge port permits quick charging (supported at Nissan dealerships for free)
Nissan permits 10 days free rental for e.g. road trips
Substantially more of them in service, and 2013 is the 2nd generation of them (so greater selection and fewer "issues" with new technology)
Much lower sticker price than RAV4

Vague arguments for the RAV4:
Seats 5 more comfortably than the Leaf would
More cargo capacity
Higher driving range in less L2 charging time (100 miles actual in 6.5 hours or 70 miles actual in 10 hours)
Goes faster, particularly in Sport Mode (which I haven't used because I commute in Los Angeles county)

Shared negatives:
Comes with a 120V plug. I just can't be bothered to own a car I'd have to spend a day or two to charge once it was "out of gas"; you'd best have your home L2 charging solution installed before you take delivery.
No spare tire. Not that big a deal, since we've got AAA and both vehicles come with patch kits and roadside assistance, but that's a lousy way to "make up" cargo space (especially since the non-EV RAV4 has the spare mounted on the otherwise-identical rear door).
Lack of power seat adjustments. (Sorry, had those with dual-driver memory for 10 years in my last car, can't see a good reason to leave it out of an EV that'll let me kill the 12V battery by leaving my phone or iPod plugged in.)

My commute is a daily 57-mile round trip. I could theoretically make that in either vehicle, but as I've gotten better at driving efficiently, I can do it two days straight on one "normal" charge of the RAV4, which I could not manage in the Leaf.

If you need the range or the cargo capacity, the Leaf is inadequate.

 

[arnolddeleon]

We own a 2011 LEAF and 2012 RAV4-EV (which replaced a 2002 RAV4-EV).

I bought the 2012 for one big important reason, bigger battery. I don't like depending on public charging infrastructure so autonomous range matters a lot to me. We love driving the LEAF but it didn't have the autonomy of the 2002 RAV4-EV (when the 2002 was new). I seriously considered getting another LEAF to replace the 2002 but in the end I just couldn't w/o a bigger battery. My only other choice for a bigger battery was a Tesla and I just don't have the pocketbook for that. I had lived with with an orphan from Toyota for 11 years and so I wasn't terribly afraid of another Toyota orphan w/ the second incarnation of the RAV4-EV. The Tesla drivetrain is a small consolation prize.

The lack of the QC or other DC fast charge option is a minor minus but we drove over 123,000 miles in the 2002 RAV4-EV w/o one. Our LEAF has has a QC port and I've used it only once in 2 years (I know others who use QC frequently). The 10kW on board charger compensates a little bit. When we had the 2002 RAV4-EV we were able to do more driving w/ it because it had 6.6 kW charger compared to the 3.3 kW w/ the 2011 LEAF. I expect the same will be true for the 2012 (especially once I get an EVSE that can support the full charge rate).

We've owned the 2012 RAV4-EV for just over 8 weeks and over 1,100 miles. Knock on wood, no issues so far.

arnold

 

[n3ckf]

I'm lovin' my Rav4EV, i've had it just over 2 months now, and put 2800 miles on it already.

The biggest surprise to me has been the driving experience. Its very car-like, just better/faster. And i've now done a couple of panic-stops (one becuase of a deer in the road last night) and it shocks me how fast this car stops when you really want it to.

The range is something that also surprises. I'm now at the point where i can drive to my house in the mountains (about 120 miles and a 3300' elevation increase), with only 60 minutes of charging (adding about 17 miles of range) (the other way, no charging at all).

I would agree that having an L2 charging solution at home is key to owning this car, unless you can L2 charge at your employer every day (as I do).

But its a great car, I'm very happy I bought one. No dreaded Check EV for me either.

 

[eschatfische]

We have around 2600 miles and two months on our low-vin (#1249) 2012 RAV4 EV, and have had no problems at all. No Check EV System, and the charge timer has fired up every single night. We've got our fingers crossed, but so far, the experience has been very good.

The choice of the RAV4 EV was a simple one.

My wife has a 70+ mile commute, and no other EVs except for the Teslas have enough real-world range to be able to do that commute on a standard (80%) charge without adopting unacceptably low-speed driving techniques, nor do the other non-Tesla EVs allow for enough charge to easily run errands or go out after the commute without waiting for a recharge. The RAV4 EV finishes the commute with around a third of the standard charge and 30-some miles on the GOM remaining, no problem at all.

To be blunt, when we're out driving on the highway, we almost always see Leafs over in the right lane driving under the speed limit in order to preserve range. While we generally drive with an eye to efficiency, in real-world observation, the Leaf drivers seem to need to take that to an extreme that I personally would be uncomfortable with.

The "poor man's Tesla" aspect was also a big deal. The Tesla drivetrain makes the RAV4 EV fun enough to drive that I no longer long for the Model S, the price (after the super-deep May discounts and tax credits) was actually affordable, and the way that an EV with that kind of range and performance at that price had both a California-produced drivetrain and no emissions (assuming clean local power) has allowed us to fully enjoy the car without either range anxiety or a toll on our consciences.

 

[commasign]

We've had our Rav4 EV for less than 3 weeks and already put 900 miles on it. No issues at all. The 90 mile realistic normal charge range (realistic, i.e. driving with AC on, 70-75mph, not worrying about range or trying to conserve energy) allows my wife or I to make our daily commute (60 miles total) AND have enough left over for pretty much unlimited local in-town driving the same evening. We cannot do the same with our Honda Fit EV which only has a 60 mile realistic normal charge range and I would imagine the same issue if we had a Leaf which has similar range as the Fit. For us 90 miles per day is the sweet spot.

 

[mhkp]

How far are you driving per day?

I work from home, BUT have two kids and one on the way (Nov). So, my average daily range need is 30 miles. BUT, I go to USC for my MBA 4x a month, so that is 90 miles roundtrip. PLUS my wife and I drive a lot (15,000 miles on each car per year) to see friends and such in LA and OC.

My plan was to either get a LEAF and have enough range (70mi) to get to wherever I needed to go and recharge at a local Nissan dealer using Level 3, or public Level 2. I am convinced both Level 2 & 3 will see an exponential growth rate in the next 3 years in soCal. OR I was going to get the Rav4 and not care about range on a daily basis, BUT suffer through not being able to use Level 3 if I wanted to go further.

Thanks to all for your comments they are very encouraging about the Rav4. The Rav4 has many advantages over a LEAF and I appreciate them greatly. Most important to me are a) range, b) cargo space, c) room for 3 kids to grow in the back seat, 4) safety of an SUV vs compact, 5) TESLA power.

Reading your posts about 'real world' range achievement, especially in LA, especially at 70 miles and with AC and not having to slow lane it with the LEAFs is also very important. Thanks for sharing.

My sales guy at SIMI Valley, Andy, whom I highly recommend is becoming an expert on the RAV4ev with some coaching from me these last few days. He provided me with the firmwear number of 1.3.57 on the car I'm looking at, which I believe corresponds to what those with the "EV Check" fix now have. Good news.

I'll be making my decision this weekend. A member of this forum let me know that there are only 3 more weeks of the CA $2,500 rebate remaining before they need to get more funding approved. They might get it, but it may lower the rebate amount.

Thanks again for your guidance.

 

[miimura]

A member of this forum let me know that there are only 3 more weeks of the CA $2,500 rebate remaining before they need to get more funding approved. They might get it, but it may lower the rebate amount.

See my post about the rebate system status here. They did run out of money in May, but the Air Resources Board put in another $5 Million so that will last a little while. I would not worry about the rebate amount changing this year. They will find funding for this program and people will eventually get their rebates. Longer term, it will probably be reduced, but there should be some advance warning.

 

[TonyWilliams]

How far are you driving per day?

I work from home, BUT have two kids and one on the way (Nov). So, my average daily range need is 30 miles. BUT, I go to USC for my MBA 4x a month, so that is 90 miles roundtrip. PLUS my wife and I drive a lot (15,000 miles on each car per year) to see friends and such in LA and OC.

I wouldn't consider public charging for daily needs... It's just far too fickle (dealers blocking, not available after hours, broken a lot, almost asking permission every time for a basic need, etc.).

For long hauls, Tesla is the only logical choice. So, given that, I would only consider the Rav4 EV for your 90 mile trip. As the battery degrades over time, you will appreciate the buffer of range.

Even at 100,000 miles, where I expect 20% battery loss, you could still drive 113 miles at 65mph down the freeway with all my usual caveats.

 

[Bassman]

Have a 2011 LEAF and a 2012 Rav4EV- 11,000 miles on the Rav in just under 5 months- no major problems - My commute is 126 miles roundtrip and the Leaf, after 2 years and 36,000 miles, has lost about 18% of its capacity, so I was having to charge for an hour on the way home, whiich was getting old. I only charge to 80% on the Rav and get home with 40 miles of range still available. I barely drive the LEAF anymore. Also the Rav is sooo much quicker on acceleration, especially in sport mode.

The LEAF has a softer ride, but the Rav has so much more space.

 

[mikegerard]

I need to add that it's FUN to drive. I'm finding myself driving just for fun or taking the long way to get places... That's something I have not done in several years.

I'm seriously considering getting a second one and either selling our 2 year old sienna or just parking it and keeping it for long trips.

 

[mhkp]

I need to add that it's FUN to drive. I'm finding myself driving just for fun or taking the long way to get places... That's something I have not done in several years.

I'm seriously considering getting a second one and either selling our 2 year old sienna or just parking it and keeping it for long trips.

Well if its fun, I guess I have to get one! Just got mine (#1708) at Simi Toyota. Thanks to all of you who helped with this decision.

 

[shrink]

Nissan permits 10 days free rental for e.g. road trips

I've never heard of the Nissan free car rental before. I did hear of it with the Fiat EV, I think, but not Nissan. Is that specific to your dealership or a new thing?

 

[BSki]

With the exception of the optional Chadmo, I can't think of any reason to get a leaf over the Rav 4 EV.

Maybe leather?

Rav 4 EV is so much more vehicle.

 

[TonyWilliams]

With the exception of the optional Chadmo, I can't think of any reason to get a leaf over the Rav 4 EV.

Maybe leather?

Rav 4 EV is so much more vehicle.

Agreed, but the price is also far higher for Rav4 EV.