Buying a Rav4 outside of CA

[TonyWilliams]

The regional service director told him there is a good chance the car will come out east. Just a matter of corporate deciding when or whether to take the plunge.

Sure they will !!! They'll siphon off some of the 2600 production from California and then not meet the volume in 3 years required to meet CARB ZEV credits.... sure they'll do that.

Or enter another contract with Tesla for more $38,000 powertrains per Rav4 and sell you the ENTIRE car with warranty for just a bit more than that.... sure they'll do that.

Plunge would be the right word, because it would be dumb beyond dumb for Toyota to do that.

 

[Dsinned]

Tony, at the rate the're selling in CA only, what must be becoming clear to Toyota is they are NOT going to sell "2600" units in 3 years. So, what happens to all the excess inventory then? They can tell CARB they tried their best, but the CA market was just too weak to buy that many SUV ZEVs. (Which btw, is one plausible reason for all the deep discounting, which Toyota can later use to appeal to CARB for a waiver.)

I have heard recently from a Toyota "insider" they are in fact considering expanding the market. Maybe they won't THIS year, or maybe they will . . . its just too soon to say. However, if gasoline prices in CA spike up to or over $5/gal, well then their problem may be solved by the growing anger of millions of CA consumers, and that may just be this car's ultimate salvation as a so-called "compliance" car.

 

[Pennsylvania RAV]

I looked at all service requirements out to 100k miles. Sounds like basically topping off or replacing coolants, rotating tires, checking
brakes for wear, checking to make sure no run-away accelerator Prius mats are in these Rav 4 EVs, and replacing cabin air filter. Checking
chassis..It says right in the manual that while the "non powertrain" stuff/maintenance can be done by any Toyota Dealer, any power train
issues will have to be done by Certified RAV 4 EV dealer.

So am I correct in thinking that any dealer really should be able to do this maintenance (will they have the battery/inverter/motor/etc.
coolants?). However, in the event there is a powertrain issue, I'm shipping it back to San Diego?

Anyway...I just officially bought it today...2 weeks tip shipped here...so I guess you can stick a marker on Lancaster, PA on your map.
Can't be that hard to figure this out...

Where there's a will, there is a way.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... I just officially bought it today...2 weeks tip shipped here...so I guess you can stick a marker on Lancaster, PA on your map.

Congrats and welcome to the club. What color?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony, at the rate the're selling in CA only, what must be becoming clear to Toyota is they are NOT going to sell "2600" units in 3 years. So, what happens to all the excess inventory then? They can tell CARB they tried their best....

I think you're assuming that Toyota gets a pass somehow, and I just don't see that happening. We already had that in 2003. If they can't sell the 2600 in 3 years, Toyota will alternately have to buy ZEV credits on the open market, in addition to the $100 million that they paid Tesla.

But, they don't have to physically build cars that they can't sell (and no longer need if they pay ZEV credits). I'm sure they could cut some kind of deal with Tesla to not build all 2600 drive trains.

But, with the existing CARB rules, and knowing that these cars cost Toyota $10k per unit, plus the current $10k in additional discounts to unload them, there is just ZERO financially sound reason to sell these any place else.

Nissan has TONS of ZEV credits that they can sell. Tesla, too (that Toyota owns a minority share of).

Again, unless somebody could convince me that somehow only Toyota will wiggle around the rules (and all the other manufacturers will just sit idly by and watch while they spend beau coup bucks complying) or that CARB will let ALL manufacturers slip by, then I'll believe that they'll unload current production Rav4 EVs anywhere they can and not make any more.

Their official position is EV's bad, hybrids good, so they wouldn't be producing Rav4 EV's for some reason other than it's cheaper than buying ZEV credits to sell oil burning cars in California by the 100,000's.

I'd love to hear the whiny, "We tried to sell EV's, but nobody wants them" while Tesla pumps out the entire production of Rav4 EV's in about a week with cars that cost twice as much... and they will be selling a larger SUV, too... built in California. Ya, not a very believable story.

I'll repost this:

"I bumped into Elon at a dinner party. I asked about the Rav4 since it was not yet being delivered. He said that Toyota was not interested in selling the car. How do you know, I asked. He said the price ($50k) was too high for the car and that he offered to drop the price of the drive train to their manufacturing costs if Toyota would drop the price of the car the same amount. They said no."

"You only say no if you don't want to sell the cars."

 

[klusters]

Congratulations Penn! What shipping company did you use?

Tony I think its possible that toyota will sell their Rav4EV at a few right coast dealerships. The ZEV mandate has a federal provision allowing automakers to ship cars between states that have adopted the mandate to hit sales targets. States like NJ, NY, MA have said they would adopt the new mandate. This may account for the FFE selling in those states shortly after it came out it cali.
Additionally, plugin in cars like the PIP also count towards the mandate so it not necessarily true that Toyota needs to sell all 2600 RAV4 EV's in California to make its quota.

 

[Pennsylvania RAV]

Blizzard White

klusters - sorry couldn't figure the email to reply to you.

I used Golden Key Express and bought from Mossy Toyota in San Diego. My partner has
shipped cars from San Diego to Lancaster, PA and very satisfied with this shipping company...
can't personally vouch for them for another 2 weeks. $1,100 to ship (diesel surcharge)...deliver
to front door.

If you lease, you lose the federal and state tax credits...Just go for it and buy the thing klusters...great
deal. plus 0% financing...


Misty Webb
Dispatch Coordinator
Golden Key Express
Phone 513-732-5810 Hours M-F 8:30 to 6:00 EST
Fax 513-732-5875


Incidentally, just got off phone with my local PA Toyota. They said no problem servicing the
vehicle. Spoke with one of the technicians...he just said to give them a week head's up and service
mileage to get any stuff they might need.

 

[SeattleRav4]

Welcome to the RAV4 EV Out-of-staters club!

 

[klusters]

Thanks Penn for the shipping info. Will your be shipped in a covered truck or open bed?

Regarding service, that is what I was told as well. They said they have all the manuals and can perform the basic service. The potential issue would be if they need to lower the battery to address a powertrain issue. They do not have the equipment nor training to do so.

 

[Pennsylvania RAV]

Open. my buddy did say there were lots and lots of bugs on his windshield when he got it...but
nothing a trip to car wash can't fix.

As for powertrain...I'm in discussion with Tesla. There is a Tesla store/service center 68 miles
from my house...prob. one alot close than San Fran/Diego to yours as well. I'm trying to get
Tesla to buy this logic:

1. Selling more Rav 4 EV's is good for Tesla. (people love 'em for the Tesla componenets in no small measure). It's advertising and sends message to Toyota et al. that Tesla components have demand.

2. If you want to do EV's (as Tesla understands) CA is not the be all and end all...there's a much bigger
market than CA for EV's.

3. There are people willing to spend some bucks to ship...esp. when Toyota is damn near giving them away. But the biggest impediment to OOS sales is this whole powertrain issue.

4. It would be a small but very simple thing if Tesla were to simply reassure East Coasters that in the event of a powertrain issue, they've got you covered....work something out with Toyota.

This is the case I'm trying to make to local Tesla store. Jump on in if you like...don't know if there's one near you....but maybe they could hear from multiple folks simultaneously.

 

[RecActVeh]

As for powertrain...I'm in discussion with Tesla. There is a Tesla store/service center 68 miles
from my house...prob. one alot close than San Fran/Diego to yours as well. I'm trying to get
Tesla to buy this logic:

1. Selling more Rav 4 EV's is good for Tesla. (people love 'em for the Tesla componenets in no small measure). It's advertising and sends message to Toyota et al. that Tesla components have demand.

Good luck with that logic.

Tony's posting of the candid remarks by Elon Musk make it clear that Toyota BEV's desires are non-existant and its underscored by the lack of any Tesla badging on the vehicle. Not even a tiny sticker! That could be by Toyota's, Tesla's or both insistence. Seems like a proud association would display just that.

I own a Dodge Ram with the Cummins engine which Chrysler proudly displays the Cummins emblem on every one of them. In fact on both sides and sometimes on the back. They market the association in every way.

Which brings me to the original point. Even though the engine in my Dodge is a Cummins, when an injector issue arose out on the road, the local Cummins service center would not even look at it. I had to take the vehicle 150 miles to the local Dodge dealer for warranty work. The only way the Cummins dealer would work on it, was if I paid for everything out-of-pocket and then tried to get reimbursed by Chrysler. Not something I was going to gamble on. I'm sure Toyota and Tesla have the whole warranty thing nailed out contractually.

In February Toyota sold 166,377 vehicles in the US market of which:
17,812 Toyota Prius
693 Plug-in-Prius
54 Rav4EV (and they had to throw a bunch of money at that pathetic number)

There is no money in the Rav4EV. It's counter to their corporate bottom line. To say Toyota's not crazy about this vehicle would be an understatement and I bet they wish they had just bought the ZEV credits from Tesla instead (assuming they were for sale)

 

[Dsinned]

In retrospect, it is too bad that Tesla didn't do a deal with Toyota for the "rights" to the RAV4 EV, and in return, sold Toyota discounted ZEV credits. Then, Tesla could be the company marketing and selling this car as a "Tesla" instead of the absolutely pathetic job Toyota is doing with it. Under the TESLA brand, this car probably would of been a much more successful "first of its kind electrified SUV" story.

If this car was rebadged in TESLA logo, covered under a Tesla warranty, it could have been sold in all 50 states. It could of easily have incorporated a Tesla designed fast charger capability to take advantage of Tesla's fastcharger network infrastructure, which would of attracted at least a couple orders of magnitude eager buyers. Then, instead of seemingly endless dealerships passing on substantial cashback incentives on top of big discounts and 0% factory financing enticements, Tesla could likely sell this car at full MSRP (as Toyota tried to establish, or perhaps significantly lower as Elon wanted) with no purchasing incentives at all. In fact, there probably would be a "waiting list" of potential buyers for this same exact car across the country instead of nobody wanting to buy it only in CA. The joint manufacturing process could stay the same too, but with Toyota in the role as a major subcontractor. With a $100 million on the table to play with, the automaker versions of "let's make a deal", surely some other arrangement should have been possible and mutually beneficial to both companies.

If only Toyota did more thorough marketing research to begin with, and perhaps was more daring, "thinking outside the box", they wouldn't be in this predicament trying to sell what could best be described as a phenomenal electrified family SUV that only very, very few people in CA want to buy.

 

[shikataganai]

More food for thought for on-the-fence Seattleites:

By my calculations (see here to check my math), for a RAV4 EV buyer in Seattle the payoff time relative to a feature-matched 2013 gasoline RAV4 is now under a year thanks to Toyota's generous current incentives.

 

[Dsinned]

Heck, if you wait just a few more months, the 2012 RAV4 EV will probably have $15,000 in cash incentives, plus the $7500 tax credit, and still offered with 0% APR financing from Toyota, which means its effective selling price is waaaay LESS than a fully loaded gas powered 2013 RAV4 Limited. For all the money saved, you can just eat the shipping cost to have would-be warranty repairs to the Tesla drivetrain components performed by an authorized CA dealer and still come out way ahead financially. :mrgreen:

 

[SeattleRav4]

I didn't check all the calculations for accuracy but
on the $1500 EVSE, you can get a refurbished Clipper Creek, off Ebay, for $750.
Tony swears by them.
that should push your breakeven even shorter

 

[pchilds]

I didn't check all the calculations for accuracy but
on the $1500 EVSE, you can get a refurbished Clipper Creek, off Ebay, for $750.
Tony swears by them.
that should push your breakeven even shorter

$770 with shipping for a CS-60, 48 amp, the cable is a bit under sized, IMO with 8 awg wires.

 

[doug401]

Great thread,
I've been considering a second Leaf purchase, but it appears an out of state Rav 4 EV is doable. I'm going to call Dianne in L.A. and chat. I'm in Washington state so the sales tax exemption is important. I need to research that some more.

Aside from not having a DC3 capability, the vehicle looks like a real performer. Besides... the DC3 charge station in and around Western Washington are hit and miss. Either broken, or there are 2 Leaf's waiting in line.

 

[Pennsylvania RAV]

You should also check with Korinne at Mossy Toyota in San Diego. They have less of a selection, but she was very helpful. Plus,
they are all pretty much same trim...except color.

 

[doug401]

Just a follow up,
I spoke to Dianne. Very helpful. My learning curve of Toyota's lease business model vs Nissan's lease business model was a bit awkward. Reading between the lines, I now know Toyota doesn't like to just come out and say "We aren't going to give all the $7500 tax credit money if you lease". Only to find this info in another thread after the fact.

So the "Deal of the Century" appears to be a purchase. But I'm hesitant. I purchased my Leaf, only to learn later that leasing should have been the best choice. The depreciation bug bit hard.

I also see the RAV4 as a public charging buffer. The huge battery pack, and quick 220 charge rates are the ticket to bypassing inadequate public charging. I, a generally positive EV nut, have become jaded. Going to Leavenworth on the EV highway... wrong answer, DC3 charger down at Skykomish as I look at a 4000 ft pass in front of me :? . Lets go to Bellingham to test the states 1st DC3 charger... wrong answer. It's Ice'd for 4 hours :evil: . Hey...let go to Seattle for the day. Ha Ha sorry, Blink units are half broken and several Leafs are waiting in line, and so am I . Did I mention jaded?

Another concern of mine is my Federally funded Blink EVSE. It's on a 40 amp breaker. It doesn't sound like it will cut it on many levels.

Anyway, if anyone can provide courage and wisdom it would be a help.

 

[Pennsylvania RAV]

I bought the RAV 4 EV and am leasing a LEAF....just a lucky guess, but w/ newer 6.6 kWh chargers now available and lower price..
glad I did. In my opinion, the best deal on the RAV 4 EV is to BUY. Here's why: Better financially - full fed
and state tax rebates are yours...plus.. I don't think Toyota has much in store to change this vehicle...After all as
many realize, it's a compliance vehicle...they went to Tesla to build the guts for them...improbable that
a newer, faster charger is going to come out next year. I think this is the RAV 4 EV you're going to see for next
few years...and then nada or else they will start over on something new, if market forces persuade them it's financially wise to
do so. Nissan is clearly in this game for entirely different reasons and it makes sense that they will quickly
respond to problems, change the technology, try to make it more affordable, upgrade components on subsequent
models, etc. So, I guess I'm saying...I believe LEAF is likely to change a lot more and a lot faster. RAV 4 EV..
I don't think so.

Also, I hear your frustration about public charging stations and trying to figure out when it's financially best to
jump in, but remember this is still very early EV days....like ICE in the 30's...It takes millions of owners before
you discover some of the issues. If you want to be an early adopter,
there will always be these issues to deal with..there will be kinks that have to get worked out by motor corp.s,
there will be safety hazards...just wait until the first big crash and battery fire...it'll be all over FOX news as the
bane of the EV! But slowly gradually, I think it's going to catch on....at 2.5 cents per mile...compared to 9 cents
per mile in my former Prius....and with the inevitability of increasing oil prices as peak oil sets in...this thing is
gonna happen.

Early adopters help work out the bugs, I guess.

As for RAV 4 EV...I'd go for the purchase. At least that's what I did.