ALL POSTS - Replacement Traction Battery

[TonyWilliams]

So I have a battery that has the equivalent capacity of one ~85k miles. My point about the Tony test is that I charged on regular mode, then switched it to extended to see if it would charge further and it did not. This seems to match what you said earlier that Toyota effectively uses up the extended capacity to maintain the perception that the regular charge is OK. I have my eye on another RAV4 coming off lease almost the same day and trying to negotiate a price with the lease holder. The Tony Test yielded 143 on his vehicle. In the meantime I am trying to get Toyota to compensate me for destroying my range (and charger!)

It sounds like you have it handled well. Don't expect anything from Toyota, particularly if you turn in the car.

Just get another RAV4 EV. There's lots on the market right now.

 

[fooljoe]

Today I determined that Toyota has disabled the Extended Charge functionality on the battery. They either put in a diminished battery that always gets charged to Extended at ~129 miles, or set it up that you can never charge those last 4KWHrs as the Extended Charge button does not actually cause additional charging.

I found this out by charging FULL on normal charge, then switching to Extended Charge and the car did not take additional charge.

So I gave Toyota a 141 mile battery and they replaced it with a 129 mile battery. Between the BS Mirai crap and this I am becoming increasingly anti-Toyota!

Did you use the car at all after the full normal charge, and were you charging on a timer? I ask because once a charge completes the car sets an internal "charge completed" flag, which isn't reset until you drive. If you just enable extended charge and then try to charge again after the "charge completed" flag might have never been unset and so the car wouldn't initiate the charge (thinking it's already full.)

You've probably already done this, but just in case I'd try again by driving the car around until you get a lower SOC, then enabling extended charge before any charging. If you still get that 129 after the Tony test then, yeah that's a problem. But I wouldn't rely on just the one example of not charging after a full normal charge.

 

[laguna_b]

Well, actually I did the equvalent of a gas top up after the "pump switched off". I did unplug the charger and came back after some time had passed and plugged it in again. It started charging and may have squeezed another 1KWHr in before stopping. That brought result up to "134" but not a true Tony test.....just a close equivalent. Just for fun I will try a true Tony test on extended and see what happens.

Toyota keeps claiming the Mirais keep flying off the lot but everyone I talk to that has one is working there and they gave an irresistible deal. Will they ever learn how stupid this is?

 

[laguna_b]

Learning to HATE Toyota. So Toyota Customer satisfaction department finally got back to me and said that in fact, there are ONLY refurbished batteries now and that my 126 mile battery charge is to spec. I told them that the battery is spec'd at 41.6KWHrs not 36KWHrs which is what they gave me.

They want me to take it back to the dealership to certify the state of the battery. I suspect this will lead to no resolution so I plan to take them to Small Claims court as a failure to honor warranty. In California that can be as high as $10,000.

Has anyone had experience with this in California to date?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Learning to HATE Toyota. So Toyota Customer satisfaction department finally got back to me and said that in fact, there are ONLY refurbished batteries now and that my 126 mile battery charge is to spec. I told them that the battery is spec'd at 41.6KWHrs not 36KWHrs which is what they gave me.

They want me to take it back to the dealership to certify the state of the battery. I suspect this will lead to no resolution so I plan to take them to Small Claims court as a failure to honor warranty. In California that can be as high as $10,000.

Has anyone had experience with this in California to date?

What's going to be the basis for your claim? I do not believe that warranty repairs are required to be done with new parts.

You'll be more upset if you spend a bunch of money suing, only to find out that what they did meet the requirements.

I want to be perfectly clear... THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR BATTERY DEGRADATION.

I got this definition from the Federal Trade Commission webiste:

Parts are classified as:

New — These parts generally are made to original manufacturer's specifications, either by the vehicle manufacturer or an independent company. Your state may require repair shops to tell you if non-original equipment will be used in the repair. Prices and quality of these parts vary.

Remanufactured, rebuilt and reconditioned — These terms generally mean the same thing: parts have been restored to a sound working condition. Many manufacturers offer a warranty covering replacement parts, but not the labor to install them.

Salvage — These are used parts taken from another vehicle without alteration. Salvage parts may be the only source for certain items, though their reliability is seldom guaranteed.

*****************
http://www.myrav4ev.com/docs/RAV4EV_Warranty_and_Maintenance.pdf

Parts Replacement

Any needed parts replacement will be
made using new or remanufactured parts.

The decision whether a part should be
repaired or replaced will be made by the
servicing Toyota dealership and/or Toyota.

Parts scheduled to be replaced as required
maintenance are warranted until their first
replacement only.

Important: You must use the Dispute
Settlement Program (or, in California,
the CDSP) before seeking remedies
through a court action pursuant to the
Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (the
“Act”). However, if you choose to
pursue rights and remedies not
created by the Act, you are not
required to use the Dispute Settlement
Program (CDSP). You may also be
required to use the Dispute Settlement
Program or CDSP before seeking
remedies under the “Lemon Laws” of
your state. Please check this booklet
and the appropriate page of the
Owner’s Warranty Rights Notification
booklet for additional information and
the requirements applicable to your
state.

 

[laguna_b]

Learning to HATE Toyota. So Toyota Customer satisfaction department finally got back to me and said that in fact, there are ONLY refurbished batteries now and that my 126 mile battery charge is to spec. I told them that the battery is spec'd at 41.6KWHrs not 36KWHrs which is what they gave me.

They want me to take it back to the dealership to certify the state of the battery. I suspect this will lead to no resolution so I plan to take them to Small Claims court as a failure to honor warranty. In California that can be as high as $10,000.

Has anyone had experience with this in California to date?

What's going to be the basis for your claim? I do not believe that warranty repairs are required to be done with new parts.

You'll be more upset if you spend a bunch of money suing, only to find out that what they did meet the requirements.

I want to be perfectly clear... THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR BATTERY DEGRADATION.

I got this definition from the Federal Trade Commission webiste:

Parts are classified as:

New — These parts generally are made to original manufacturer's specifications, either by the vehicle manufacturer or an independent company. Your state may require repair shops to tell you if non-original equipment will be used in the repair. Prices and quality of these parts vary.

Remanufactured, rebuilt and reconditioned — These terms generally mean the same thing: parts have been restored to a sound working condition. Many manufacturers offer a warranty covering replacement parts, but not the labor to install them.

Salvage — These are used parts taken from another vehicle without alteration. Salvage parts may be the only source for certain items, though their reliability is seldom guaranteed.

*****************
http://www.myrav4ev.com/docs/RAV4EV_Warranty_and_Maintenance.pdf

Parts Replacement

Any needed parts replacement will be
made using new or remanufactured parts.

The decision whether a part should be
repaired or replaced will be made by the
servicing Toyota dealership and/or Toyota.

Parts scheduled to be replaced as required
maintenance are warranted until their first
replacement only.

Important: You must use the Dispute
Settlement Program (or, in California,
the CDSP) before seeking remedies
through a court action pursuant to the
Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (the
“Act”). However, if you choose to
pursue rights and remedies not
created by the Act, you are not
required to use the Dispute Settlement
Program (CDSP). You may also be
required to use the Dispute Settlement
Program or CDSP before seeking
remedies under the “Lemon Laws” of
your state. Please check this booklet
and the appropriate page of the
Owner’s Warranty Rights Notification
booklet for additional information and
the requirements applicable to your
state.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Tony,

This would not be a Lemon Law case as it is over 18,000 miles. I agree that substituting refurbed parts is ok as long as they are in SPEC. There is where the argument goes.
I know they don't warranty battery degradation, BUT the battery I gave them was not degraded. A judge would optionally decide that the degradation clause applied to the ORIGINAL battery, not a replacement that failed completely.
BTW, my plan is Small Claims court where I am in for under $100. The limits are $10k or an order to fix, or both.

Question: Is there any documentation of the Tony Test I could use against them? Then the logic is simple. The Tony test is a verifiable measure of capacity. 3.5 MPKWHr x 41.8 = 144 So, if the 3.5 is verified and the 41.8 is spec, then it can be argued that they put in an out of spec part that was not refurbished but simple worn (worn more than what they took out).

I agree dumping this one (coming off lease) and getting another would be a good idea unless I get another one where the contactor goes and another crap battery goes in. I am mulling that one though.

BTW, Tony, thanks for your generous donation of good info and advice.....always...

Barry

 

[miimura]

If it was me and I got a replacement battery pack that got a Tony-Test value of 134, I would not waste my time seeking recourse. The difference in vehicle utility is just too small. That's just my feeling because I drive the car more than 100mi/day maybe 4 or 5 times a year.

 

[laguna_b]

Well two things.....one is that this adds 1 hr of charging for me when I go to SF and makes trips to Big Sur prohibitive so MY usage model has been seriously impacted. The second is that I gave them a 141 mile battery and they gave me back a 126 mile battery. The 134 number was ephemeral if I "topped" the battery a few times and likely not usable at all.

But Tony did say there are returns that are healthy and grab one since my lease is up. I have a problem with Toyota not honoring its warranty and word so I will fight it and in the end little risk, possible reward and most of all satisfaction. That is just me... consumers should hold companies to their word.

 

[laguna_b]

Found some gold for ALL!

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000119312511308489/d226201dex101.htm

Here is the Toyota /Tesla contract:
(under lines are mine)
Warranty Diagnosis Procedures. The determination of warranty repair or replacement of parts included in the Refurbishment Program shall be elevated from the dealership level to appropriate Toyota personnel for review and confirmation. For warranty repair and replacement of Powertrain Battery, Tesla subject matter experts will be consulted. Following such consultation, Toyota will, in its sole discretion, determine whether or not a repair is covered under Toyota’s warranty to its customer as well as the appropriate repair or other corrective action, whether in connection with the Refurbishment Program or otherwise. Upon completion of the above review, confirmation and consultation the determination of whether or not a repair or replacement (including a refurbished part) is covered by Tesla’s warranty to Toyota, shall be made by mutual agreement of Tesla and Toyota. If the Parties are unable to agree, the dispute may be submitted to third party resolution pursuant to Section 20.18.2. To assist with that determination, Toyota shall submit a Return Material Authorization together with returns that describe the diagnostics performed, the failure stated by such diagnostics along with vehicle logs and such other information the form and substance of which shall be negotiated by the Parties in good faith. As part of this determination in respect of a Powertrain Battery, Tesla will also be furnished with sufficient information on battery condition, as agreed between Toyota and Tesla, to enable Tesla to meet its obligations under Section 7 of Exhibit H to furnish a refurbished Powertrain Battery Service Part in a condition (in terms of the MWh throughput or kWh capacity) equal to or greater than the exchanged battery (without taking into account the defective condition of the exchanged battery).

 

[miimura]

The bolded section is good. However, that language is governing the relationship between Toyota and Tesla. If Toyota doesn't feel like giving you a like-for-like replacement battery, as measured by MWh throughput or kWh capacity, they don't have to. The agreement between you and Toyota is governed by the Warranty Guide, not the Tesla contract.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The bolded section is good. However, that language is governing the relationship between Toyota and Tesla. If Toyota doesn't feel like giving you a like-for-like replacement battery, as measured by MWh throughput or kWh capacity, they don't have to. The agreement between you and Toyota is governed by the Warranty Guide, not the Tesla contract.

My lawyer wife and I just went a few rounds with this... there's no chance you'll win this.

You have an agreement with Toyota, not Tesla. Toyota will provide "refurbished" parts. They can line up Tesla and Toyota engineers who will claim the Tony-Test is made up wishful thinking.

Then, they will demand "proof" that your claim of the previous battery being better, or which you won't have besides "hearsay".

The odds of finding another car that will pull over 140 miles with a Tony-Test is slim. But, I'm confident that you could find something over the 120's easily. Are all the sales taxes, license fees, etc, worth a few extra miles of range?

 

[laguna_b]

All your points are good ones but my cost for Small Claims is minimal. I do actually have a few photos of Tony test results over 140 and plan to collect a few more.

The cost for Toyota (bringing in a team of engineers) and the risk of defeat in court, even as Small Claims is not a precedent court, will likely move them to settle.

My argument with the Toyota / Tesla contract will be:
- The T/T contract specifies a definition of refurbishment that one would have reasonable expectation was concluded to be passed to the consumer (judge has to decide this)
- The normal definition of "refurbished" is returned to functioning to spec as a new product....not a piece of junk

Anyone having Tony Test pics would be appreciated. They should include mileage and vin. Especially nice would be one conducted by Toyota services.

 

[smkettner]

Even if you win a default judgement... good luck collecting. They do not just roll over and write a check.

 

[laguna_b]

Even if you win a default judgement... good luck collecting. They do not just roll over and write a check.

This is true...but on both sides there are risks. To Toyota there are many others who would see my success, possibly news coverage and more. Then the negotiations after a judgment to avoid appeal. My guess is that it won't got that far that a sober biz judgement will say "look what happened to United and their brand" and make a reasonable settlement. It is business and they will weigh risks... right now they have to know that it is one sided risk. $100 for Small Claims, no cost recovery if I lose.

 

[Philly RAV4 EV]

I wish you the best of luck

 

[laguna_b]

Update:
So, the replacement battery that Toyota installed was deficient in range with a Tony test of 126 (this is old history)

After much haranguing and verification by Tesla/Toyota that it WAS indeed deficient, they found my old battery which last tested at 141(cold day in March) and fixed the contactor.

They installed my old battery and initial testing shows it maxes at 135, not 141. (they reported to Toyota 126 since it was not extended charged.)

I am going to return the vehicle, now at end of lease and have acquired a 2014 Blue RAV4 EV with 11,780 miles! It is still in warranty and got the extended 8 year 100k mile warranty.

I got this beauty for $20.9k at Carlsbad Toyota to be delivered up north here Saturday.

The vehicle is IMMACULATE just like new. Battery tested to 143 I bet they left it full or empty a lot or it would have been at 146.

 

[co2112]

Update: After much haranguing and verification by Tesla/Toyota that it WAS indeed deficient, they found my old battery which last tested at 141(cold day in March) and fixed the contactor.

have acquired a 2014 Blue RAV4 EV with 11,780 miles! It is still in warranty and got the extended 8 year 100k mile warranty.

I got this beauty for $20.9k at Carlsbad Toyota to be delivered up north here Saturday.

Wow, sorry to hear all the back and forth. You'd think they'd test the replacement before install. Glad they found and refurbished your old battery. That Blue sounds perfect good luck with it.

 

[laguna_b]

Update: After much haranguing and verification by Tesla/Toyota that it WAS indeed deficient, they found my old battery which last tested at 141(cold day in March) and fixed the contactor.

have acquired a 2014 Blue RAV4 EV with 11,780 miles! It is still in warranty and got the extended 8 year 100k mile warranty.

I got this beauty for $20.9k at Carlsbad Toyota to be delivered up north here Saturday.

Wow, sorry to hear all the back and forth. You'd think they'd test the replacement before install. Glad they found and refurbished your old battery. That Blue sounds perfect good luck with it.

I got the car up here a week ago. The motor is much quieter than my old ones. The car is immaculately clean, especially under the hood. You would SWEAR it was brand new, not 12k miles. It shows no sign of the wear and tear that I put on my old one living on mountain roads and pot holes. BEST of all..... "Tony test"ed out today at a full 146 miles range! 100% nominal battery!

If anyone is interested, there is a Silver (grey?) with 13k at SF Toyota for a good price. I have not seen it (hate grey).

 

[cossie1600]

So is the bottom line the warrantied batteries are used? not new?

 

[jimbo69ny]

Dont forget to update the owners spreadsheet if you had anything replaced. This will help us see how big of an issue this is!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SRbGy1BE8i2XRuejbNURNkWLdIi0T5OGUJiksah6mQ0/edit?usp=sharing