ALL POSTS about Charge Timer Failure

[Luckyduckie]

What am I doing wrong???

Last month I had the electrician add an additional 14-50 for a Jesla for the additional Rav4 we just leased. While he was here, I asked him to add a mechanical timer to the existing AeroViroment 32A EVSE that we have be using for close to 11 months. For the past year, I've used the schedule charge and set the Rav4 for 9:00 am departure to take advantage of the TOU rates. It has mostly worked fine (the 3-4 times that the car didn't charge, I figured was due to user error ... plugging in before shutting the car off or powering on the car after plugging in seems to mess it up ... that's my theory).

After installing the new timer, the 2013 Rav4 has missed charging maybe 8-10 times. Initally, I thought it was due to user error because the car charged fine on some days but not on other nights. I started to played with different combinations ( mechanical timer with charge immediately, with the timer set to power on between 12 midnight to 7:00 am , mechanical timer with the Rav's schedule charge for 9:00 am departure, then 8:00 am departure, then the Jesla with Rav's schedule departure set for 10:30 am and then 9:00 am). This is not very scientific, because I've woken up at various times during the night 3:00, 4:00, 5:00 ish .. and when I see the car not charging I freak out and go check the plug, initiate the change the car immediately in the car, or send the charge immediately command from entunes app. This past weekend I tried to going back to the old routine of schedule charging with both the AeroViro EVSE on Sat. and the Jesla on Sun. On Sat. I got an email that the charge was complete around 3:00 am but the care wasn't charged, so I initiated charge from Entunes around 5:00am. On Sun. I got a plug-in reminder at 1:14 am (the car was pluged in and set to scheduled 9:30 am departure) again I initiated charging from Entunes app around 1:30 am.)

The 2014 Rav is only charged 3-4 times a week, but has not had any problems (maybe the 2013 is jealous ... it was parked outside the garage for the past month until we sold the ICE BMW last Thurs.). Another weird thing i noticed is the I have not been getting the Charging started notifications from Entunes since Oct. 10 ... only get plug-in reminder and charge completion.

The car should have the latest firmware since Feb. 2014 @Fremont Toyota; after I got the Check EV Warning light , but then again there's no sticker under the hood. I've been to the Piercey Toyota for 20k & 25K mile service since and they said that the firmware is up to date. I hope to get things figured out before the warranty runs out at 36k miles

Sorry, for the long ramble as I've tried to piece together events of the past month with my poor memory due to sleep deprivation and "middle-agedness". So, going forward any ideas on how I should trouble shoot this problem scientifically??? This time, I'll take notes, I promise!

TIA to all the smart people on this forum who may be able to help me!

 

[DevinL]

I believe this is due to the RAV4 "falling asleep" if the J1772 is connected in such a way, though I don't have personal experience with this. I think the only way to do this from the wall is to use something like an OpenEVSE with Real Time Clock to send a "wake-up" signal to the RAV4. I don't think the mechanical timer setup "wakes" the car correctly.

Tony may be able to provide better insight than I can as I know the cables he sells at QC Power support this capability.

 

[miimura]

@fromport:
The Entune e-mail notification system is broken right now (starting around November 6, 2014), so I'm not at all surprised that you did not get any charge notifications. You need to calculate the charge time by using the charge current and either 120V or 140V.

For Example, when you had 51 miles on the GOM, let's assume you had to replace 23kWh in the battery:
Actual charge time: 23,000 / 0.85 / 240 / 24 = 4.7 hours
Car's schedule calc: 23,000 / 0.85 / 140 / 24 = 8.05 hours

So, setting the departure for 6:00 am will of course start charging at 10:00pm!!

The way to tell for sure what time it will start charging is to plug in the car, turn it on, and look at the EV Charge Summary screen. Since the car is plugged in, the car can see the pilot signal indicating the charge current. The charge start time shown on the left side of the NAV screen will be the actual start time. If it's not what you want, hit the edit button on the right side of the screen, adjust the time, and check the new charge start time. As far as I know, that is the only way to be 100% sure what time it will start.

 

[Luckyduckie]

update

Well, I've gone back to the schedule charge with 9:00 am departure with the Jesla on the 2013 Rav. Worked ok, two days so far (Mon., Tue.)

2014 Rav is using the AV EVSE with timer and schedule charge with 8:00 am departure. Only one charge (Tue.) worked.

I'm just not sure when the car might not wake up from sleep (not sure why Toyota calls this a "feature" if it doesn't work reliably).

 

[fooljoe]

I'm just not sure when the car might not wake up from sleep (not sure why Toyota calls this a "feature" if it doesn't work reliably).

I'm guessing that the way the car works is that it'll wake up when freshly plugged in (detected via the proximity circuit.) The proximity circuit of the EVSE is passive, so it's unchanged by the power cycling of the EVSE that would occur with a "dumb" timer. What does happen when the EVSE is cycled off is that the pilot signal goes dead, and that must be what allows the car to go to sleep in the first place.

I don't know exactly how the openEVSE w/RTC timer works, or how well it works with the Rav, but it's been speculated (tested also?) that the best way to install a hardware timer would be to put the timer's switch on the proximity circuit (you'd need a J1772 cable that passes this through, like Quick Charge Power's) so that it looks to the car like the handle is freshly plugged in when the timer clicks on.

Or you could just forget all that and use RavCharge to set it and forget it.

 

[TonyWilliams]

New possible glitch that I'd like others to try and duplicate.

I have no timers on #1134, but I want preheat only on one day only.

The car didn't charge.

 

[smkettner]

Yesterday (drove 80 miles, 51 miles left according to dash) it started charging at 10pm !!!!
http://pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=7071&sid=6390&dt=20141110&gs=0&m=0
and was done at 2:45am !
http://pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=7071&sid=6390&dt=20141109&gs=0&m=1

:-( so disappointing
and Toyota really doesn't care.

And the car told you the exact start time in advance. You needed to adjust the departure time out two hours to start at midnight.

Next time turn the car off and immediately plug in. Get right back in the car and wait for the display to update and display the actual start time. Adjust departure as needed. Works every time for me.

 

[fromport]

And the car told you the exact start time in advance. You needed to adjust the departure time out two hours to start at midnight.

Next time turn the car off and immediately plug in. Get right back in the car and wait for the display to update and display the actual start time. Adjust departure as needed. Works every time for me.

I hope with the new juice box program, I will have ToU with my utility company, meaning cheap charging between midnight and 5 AM.
It's crazy that depending on the discharge of your battery, a human would have to readjust the timers every day to charge within the cheap electric rate.

I understood the JB will have a timer, so it will be probably better to have the JB determine when the rav is allowed to charge.
Imho, it's a shame that Toyota doesn't care about those problems/error for 2600+ users of their product.

 

[smkettner]

With 40 amp EVSE you should have minimal adjustments to the end time.
Even with my 30a I don't adjust unless RAV is at 25% or less to hit my 6hr window.

And yes I agree it would be helpful if Toyota had given a start time option.
Actually having a separate charge program for the home location would be ideal.

 

[fromport]

I think this is the right thread to post this in.
basic setup:
openevse set to 240V/24 amps.

I've setup a timer at the rav4 for charging at night.
Basically we all know that sucks.
When there is less than 50% of charge in the battery , the timer "kinda" works but is always way to early done.
When less than 50% in the battery it starts _way_ early and you basically can not use "time of use" from your local utility company.
I am switching over next week to ToU.

I've set my timer to depart at 7 am, with no climate control

Even though the picture may not look like it, they are all set to _charge only_!
My camera is/was not able to get the colors right. In real life they are all "charge only" color.
(I had my wife verify which is an artist to make sure I got the colors right ;-) )

This is how it charged in real life:

3/12 start 9:47pm 40 miles range left.
3/13 stop 2:12am

3/14 start 2:13am > 50% in battery
3/14 stop 4:52am

3/15 start 2:56am > 50% in battery
3/15 stop 5:09am

When I walked into the garage this morning at 7am,
I saw on my display it was still pulling 3amps from the wall

My climate control was off (blower off) and temp was set to LO and AC is/was off when I parked it.

From my understanding my car has been pulling 243x3=729 Watt since 5 am (so over 2 hours)

for what ?
is the screwup of the timer code of Toyota ?

 

[eschatfische]

Are you sure it was pulling power the entire time? Pulling power around the set departure time is normal behavior. Even if pre-climate is not selected, the RAV turns itself back on just before the set departure time and draws a small amount of power to do a final top-off and run thermal management on the battery to prepare for departure (see "Pre-driving warm up", page 43 in the manual). Ours tends to fully disengage from the EVSE around 10 minutes after the departure time.

 

[fromport]

Are you sure it was pulling power the entire time?

You are right, it wasn't
It started at 6:30 and ended at 6:50.
I checked with my power usage graphic

Pulling power around the set departure time is normal behavior. Even if pre-climate is not selected, the RAV turns itself back on just before the set departure time and draws a small amount of power to do a final top-off and run thermal management on the battery to prepare for departure (see "Pre-driving warm up", page 43 in the manual). Ours tends to fully disengage from the EVSE around 10 minutes after the departure time.

So pure coincedence that I spotted it.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[fooljoe]

This is how it charged in real life:

3/12 start 9:47pm 40 miles range left.
3/13 stop 2:12am

3/14 start 2:13am > 50% in battery
3/14 stop 4:52am

3/15 start 2:56am > 50% in battery
3/15 stop 5:09am

As you're probably already aware, the simplest way around the car's timer nonsense is to use RavCharge. You can choose to start the charge whenever you want, and also use the new early charge protection (ECP) feature to make sure the car doesn't start your charge before you want it to.

When I walked into the garage this morning at 7am,
I saw on my display it was still pulling 3amps from the wall

This low-power event always happens from 20 minutes before your chosen departure time to 7 minutes after. I generally try to avoid it by setting the car's departure time to much later than I actually leave (letting RavCharge start my charge) and unplugging before it has a chance to kick in.

 

[eschatfische]

You can choose to start the charge whenever you want, and also use the new early charge protection (ECP) feature to make sure the car doesn't start your charge before you want it to.

Is RAVCharge now able to actually stop a charge remotely? That'd be a very useful thing, and I didn't think that could be done.

I generally try to avoid it

I don't know, of all of the half-baked features of Entune and the charge timer, having the car warm up (or cool) the battery back immediately before departure actually seems to be one of the better ones, for both pack longevity and range.

 

[fooljoe]

Is RAVCharge now able to actually stop a charge remotely? That'd be a very useful thing, and I didn't think that could be done.

No, that sort of thing can't be done unless you have a "smart" EVSE. ECP makes sure charges don't happen early by sending commands to Entune to push back your departure timer depending on your SOC and EVSE current setting.

having the car warm up (or cool) the battery back immediately before departure actually seems to be one of the better ones, for both pack longevity and range.

Depending on the climate it might make sense, but here in SoCal it's generally just a waste of non-super-off-peak power. And since it's virtually impossible to set the timer to when you actually want to leave and have the charge happen when you want it to, the purpose is defeated anyway.

 

[fromport]

As you're probably already aware, the simplest way around the car's timer nonsense is to use ravcharge

I find the monthly costs of $3.25 too high.

This low-power event always happens from 20 minutes before your chosen departure time to 7 minutes after. I generally try to avoid it by setting the car's departure time to much later than I actually leave (letting RavCharge start my charge) and unplugging before it has a chance to kick in.

Thanks for the info. much appreciated

 

[smkettner]

basic setup:
openevse set to 240V/24 amps.

This is how it charged in real life:

3/12 start 9:47pm 40 miles range left.
3/13 stop 2:12am

3/14 start 2:13am > 50% in battery
3/14 stop 4:52am

3/15 start 2:56am > 50% in battery
3/15 stop 5:09am

The car would have told you it was starting too early if you Turn off, Plug in, Immediately check the info screen.

3/12 adjust the departure out 3 hour (very easy) Would have started 12:47 ended 5:12
The rest worked fine. Yes a PITN at times but soon you will learn when to check and adjust and when to plug and go.

 

[eschatfische]

Depending on the climate it might make sense, but here in SoCal it's generally just a waste of non-super-off-peak power. And since it's virtually impossible to set the timer to when you actually want to leave and have the charge happen when you want it to, the purpose is defeated anyway.

Gotcha. In our case, since we're in PG&E territory where off-peak is 11pm-7am, the car's out of the garage before 7am, the built-in timer never charges before 11pm with our 40A EVSE (even with the departure time set early), and where it gets chilly in the morning, this feature makes a whole lot of sense.

 

[fooljoe]

Gotcha. In our case, since we're in PG&E territory where off-peak is 11pm-7am, the car's out of the garage before 7am, the built-in timer never charges before 11pm with our 40A EVSE (even with the departure time set early), and where it gets chilly in the morning, this feature makes a whole lot of sense.

Yeah, with that long window you're mostly good, although the car will still start early with less than 2% SOC for a normal charge or 21% SOC for an extended charge, so if you ever get that low try the trick smkettner mentioned. In fromport's case with a 24A EVSE it'll be much harder to keep charges in a predictable window, as the car's predicted time to charge is inversely proportional to the EVSE's amperage. Smkettner's trick is effectively what RavCharge's ECP does automatically.

 

[TonyWilliams]

We will have a simple outlet on our future JAMP JR charge cable that will allow a timer to not only modulate the charge, but also wake up the car.

We do this by switching the proximity pin.

The timer we use has:

1) Override feature

2) User adjustable Daylight Savings Time (particularly useful with utilities that don't follow modern DST dates)

3) Battery back up (it will keep time for MONTHS without power)