Adventure with JdeMO in LA or seen one CHAdeMO seen them all

[Michael Bornstein]

This past Saturday I took a road trip to Gardena from my home in Bakersfield, hoping to impress my wife with the new capabilities of my RAV4 now that it has a JdeMO. The total trip was 273 miles with stops in Sherman Oaks, Van Nuys, Beverly Hills, Gardena, and Santa Clarita. My first stop was at the Gelson's on Van Nuys Blvd in Sherman Oaks. Try as I might, I could not get that charger to work for me. It would start up, and then quit, mostly with no error message. I reported it to NRG who said they would look into it, but I noted that it had been used successfully on Saturday morning before I arrived and again on Sunday. My wife was very upset, mainly as she didn't like the neighborhood around the Gelson's Market where I left her while I went to the Nissan dealer.

I moved on to the Nissan dealer in Van Nuys, about a mile away. Here I charged successfully, although near the end I was temperature limited.

Next stop was for a few minutes in Beverly Hills and then on to Gardena.

On the return from Gardena, I went to the Canyon Country Plaza in Santa Clarita, off the CA-14. This mall has a dual headed charger and a single head CHAdeMO, as well as a Korean BBQ restaurant. I had only 6 miles on the GOM and 1 bar left when I arrived. In order to get home (86mi) I charged for 2 half-hours times. This also let me eat a nice Korean meal.

My point is that I have successfully charged at 5 different CHAdeMO chargers and was unsuccessful at one (@ the Gelson's). I have been successful at the other Gelson's in Calabassas. Is this a JdeMO problem or was there a problem with the charger. Note that other people (Leafs) had used it successfully before and after I had the problem. Has anyone else tried that charger?

 

[TonyWilliams]

I looked this location up. That charger is produced by BTC in Santa Ana, CA.

These have been tested succesfully at the original BTC installations at Quail Hill (Irvine) and a second location in Irvine.

 

[Michael Bornstein]

I chose to charge at this site as it is near the limit of how far I can drive on a full charge from home. I arrive with <20 miles to spare on my GOM, and I don't want to risk arriving at a charger further south and finding that it is out of service. If I can't charge at this Gelson's, there are other options nearby. The Gelson's provides a place to relax, have coffee and a Danish, etc. that I can't get at the Nissan dealer and the DWP sites nearby. If anyone else with a JdeMO has a chance, please try to charge here and let me know if there is truly a problem (i.e. they changed their firmware since Tony tested the charger), or if it was a fluke that has since been corrected. I drive to LA infrequently, so I won't be able to test it myself for several months.

That said, I think the trip was a success and it demonstrates what JdeMO allows you to do with the RAV4. I drove 273 miles with only having to stop to charge twice, once on the way down and then again on the way back. Most of my travelling was at 65 mph or faster on I-5. This included crossing the Grapevine twice. I made numerous stops along the way, and had a nice Korean BBQ for dinner.

 

[JasonA]

I've charged my Rav here a few times and it's either Go or no-go. But that's the unit itself. Look at PS and you'll see that others in the past have issues with locked screens, reboots, connection issues, etc.

LADWP substation is right down the street (walking distance).

Next time, drop her off at the Sherman oaks Galleria and then go charge up for 30/40 min on L3.

Then hit L2 at Whole Paychecks across the street from the Galleria to top off at 100%.

Snazzy.

P.S. the Walgreen's L3 in Tarzana is in the heart of it all and TONS of stuff on the BLVD.

Also, why did it take 2.5hrs on the 50kw ABB up in Santa Clarita?? I've charged there PLENTY of times.

 

[Michael Bornstein]

Also, why did it take 2.5hrs on the 50kw ABB up in Santa Clarita?? I've charged there PLENTY of times.

Not 2.5 hours, 2 x 30 minutes. My battery was almost empty, only one bar out of 16 remaining and 6 miles on the GOM. The first 30 minutes got me to about a 65% charge, so I decided for a 2nd 30 minutes and to finish the Korean BBQ. Thanks for the other advice. I'll try that next time if she lets me have a next time.

BTW, when and how will NRG send me a bill?

Mike

 

[miimura]

BTW, when and how will NRG send me a bill?

Oh, this made me laugh.

I have an e-Golf and I heard there was a compatibility problem with BTC chargers. So, shortly after the NRG site in Sunnyvale with two of those chargers opened, I went to try them out. I purposely didn't charge the car for a few days so I would arrive at less than 20% SOC. Well, it was a bust. The charger could not establish communication with the car, so while I was on the phone with NRG tech support, I racked up two sessions and 4-5 minutes each session. I was told they put a note in my account and that I should not be billed for those sessions. Since the battery was really low, the next morning I went to the Mountain View NRG site and used the ABB charger. It worked perfectly. So, I had three sessions in August, two of which I should not have to pay for because they failed.

On September 26th, NRG's billing system went haywire and sent 20+ duplicate invoices to a whole bunch of customers. There was an apology e-mail, but it's really indicative of the quality of their billing system. On that invoice they billed me for all the sessions on 8/19 and 8/20. So, I called to complain that I was in fact billed for the sessions that failed on the e-Golf. They said they initiated a refund but it would take 5-7 days to show up on my credit card. Fine. A month later, no refund shows. I had received a call on my voicemail from someone at NRG after the failed sessions saying that they were monitoring the trouble tickets and that they were serious about being compatible with all EVs on the market. I never called back, but I kept the message. So, I called this guy directly about my billing issue figuring that calling the main number again on the same issue would be futile. He made sure he understood the situation and said they would refund the two failed sessions, again in 5-7 days. Well, the refund came through in less than a week, but instead of a refund of $11.70, they refunded $34.35. That is the full billed amount of $22.65 plus the value of the failed sessions of $11.70. I'm at such a loss for words that I can't even come up with a good insult to put here. So, in my brief usage of NRG stations, they have yet to bill me correctly and since it's in my favor I'm not going to waste more of my time on it.

So, long story short, look for an e-mail and a credit card charge at almost the end of the month following usage. Make sure to review the invoice for accuracy too.

 

[cwerdna]

There are several threads about how crappy NRG eVgo's billing system is on MNL, such as these:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19528
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=19835

Buyer/customer beware. I've never used any of their infrastructure nor am I (thankfully?) a customer of theirs.

 

[Michael Bornstein]

Buyer/customer beware. I've never used any of their infrastructure nor am I (thankfully?) a customer of theirs.

I am aware of the problems with billing from NRG, that is one of the reasons I asked the question. Unfortunately, a large number of the CHAdeMO stations in the LA area are run by them. After getting my JdeMO from Tony, NRG is the most convenient supplier of energy.

I originally used their chargers in October, and still have not received a bill for that service. Is there some way to access my account on their website to see my bill?

 

[miimura]

I originally used their chargers in October, and still have not received a bill for that service. Is there some way to access my account on their website to see my bill?

Nope. As I said above, you probably won't get the bill for October usage until the end of November. There is absolutely no visibility into your usage, billing profile, or anything else on their web site. All you can do is "Update Payment Info" which requires you to enter all your information on a screen that has a weak security certificate on its https connection.

 

[Michael Bornstein]

I spoke to an eVgo when I hadn't received a bill for a while, and it turns out that they somehow lost all of my charges. I listed what my charges should have been, but they decided instead to waive the charges. It sounds like they are trying to improve their system and their image.

I am on their Flex system of charging as I live out of their area, and I charge at home all the time anyway. I noted however that the Flex system is designed to discourage people from using it. What follows is a letter that I sent to one of their reps:

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Please let me say a few words from my soapbox …

Your current Flex plan with $6.95 connect fee and $.20/min for L3 service would actually induce people to NOT use their BEV’s for travel. Let me explain why.

At home, I can charge my BEV at $.10/kWh using PG&E’s lowest TOU rate. This is only slightly less expensive than your $.10/min rate for L3 service on your standard plan. Charging twice as much is still reasonable as it puts the charge in the range of a high mileage (e.g. Prius) ICE. Adding the connect fee, however, increases the charge to the point that it becomes uneconomical to drive the BEV, and thus I would drive my Volt. As a result, you have lost my potential business.

For example, my last trip to LA was about 270 miles and I charged a total of three times for 90 minutes. In a Volt, the cost would have been $20-25 worth of gasoline. With my RAV4, the 90 minutes at $.20/min would be $18, comparable or slightly less (my 1.5 hours of waiting is worth something). Adding, however, three connect fees brings the total to $39 which is substantially more than the cost of gasoline.

For someone who uses your services several times a month, the $14.95 subscription price is not outrageous, and they get the lower cost per minute. There must, however be thousands of users that don’t use the service often enough to pay a monthly subscription, but would use their BEV for an occasional out of town trip if the cost was more reasonable.

What I am proposing is a new structure for the Flex plan. Namely a onetime connect fee of $7.50 for each calendar month that the service is used along with the $.20/min fee for the power. This would allow occasional users to drive their BEV’s at a rate comparable to gasoline and thus insure more usage of the BEV and more income to you. Anyone who regularly uses more than 75 minutes a month would be better off with the subscription plan, while the rest of us would be better with this new Flex plan.

On this new plan my trip to LA would have cost $25.50 which is comparable to gasoline, and not $39 as it would have under the old plan. I would never use my BEV to go to LA again under the current rate structure.

Try proposing this plan to management as see what they say. I think it will attract many more customers to your service.

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If this suggestion sounds reasonable, it wouldn't hurt if several other users wrote to them to suggest a similar system. Their contact number is:

http://www.nrgevgo.com/contact-evgo/

 

[davewill]

Given their druthers, there would be no Flex customers at all. THAT'S why it's priced that way. If you don't use it often enough for the monthly subscription, they don't actually want your business.

At least that's how I see it.

 

[Michael Bornstein]

Dave:

That makes no business sense at all. The object of the business must be to expand the customer base, not limit it. There must be hundreds of BEV owners in the LA area that would make use of the Flex pricing plan if it weren't so onerous. There are plans for L3 stations at Tejon Ranch and at Santa Clarita, and they would make a trip from Bakersfield practical with a BEV. I know of several owners that would be willing to travel to LA in their BEV's, but the current Flex plan makes it much more economical to use your Prius or Volt for the trip rather than your BEV. If enough people pressure NRG, they may see that their current pricing structure is actually hurting their business.

 

[miimura]

If you were going to drive from the Bay Area to LA, drive around for a weekend, and drive back on EVgo chargers, it would be worthwhile to sign up for the Total plan with the monthly fee, use it, then pay the ETF before the second month. The cutover is the 6th 30 minute session when Flex is more expensive than one month + 6 sessions + ETF. Those 6 sessions are $65.70 Flex Plan vs. $61.95 Total Plan. If you're going to keep the monthly plan, you have to use it at least two times every month to save money. The second session adds up to $20.95 on the Total Plan vs. $21.90 on Flex.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Your current Flex plan with $6.95 connect fee and $.20/min for L3 service would actually induce people to NOT use their BEV’s for travel. Let me explain why.

At home, I can charge my BEV at $.10/kWh using PG&E’s lowest TOU rate. This is only slightly less expensive than your $.10/min rate for L3 service on your standard plan. Charging twice as much is still reasonable as it puts the charge in the range of a high mileage (e.g. Prius) ICE. Adding the connect fee, however, increases the charge to the point that it becomes uneconomical to drive the BEV, and thus I would drive my Volt. As a result, you have lost my potential business.

...I would never use my BEV to go to LA again under the current rate structure.

The "Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM)" argument is an old one.

The real world economics of keeping an extra car around to "save" costs on a particular trip never include the cost to keep that car. Insurance, depreciation, taxes, license fees, smog checks, oil changes, etc, all cost money. Some people don't have any spare gasoline car, like me. And finally, I have no reason to support a gasoline infrastructure to save a few bucks on any individual trip. Overall, even if the public DC charging were more expensive, I am saving a great deal of money over gasoline use. Heck, I know of JdeMO customers who use ONLY public DC charging, at a great savings over ANY gasoline car.

I can tell you that NRG is losing money with their eVgo current program. A lot of money. They have restructured and separated eVgo from NRG as a company, which to me spells a future bankruptcy or other restructuring. They have laid off scores of people.

So, at least for NRG, I don't expect them lowering their prices in any meaningful way at anytime in the future.

Any of the pricing structures that are sold by the minute are a huge advantage for the RAV4 EV. Where other cars (any of the 80 mile range cars) will diminish their charging rate over a short time, the RAV4 EV can run a full 30 minute session at full power. You get more energy per dollar spent than what a LEAF may receive.

I pay the $14.95 per month / ten cents per minute to NRG / eVgo, and feel that the fantastic infrastructure that they have developed in SoCal at relatively high dependabilty is a bargain to NOT have to own or drive ANY gasoline car.

 

[Michael Bornstein]

The real world economics of keeping an extra car around to "save" costs on a particular trip never include the cost to keep that car.

Tony:

I think you miss my point. As you know, I have two cars, the RAV4 and a Volt. I drive the RAV and my wife drives the Volt. Both cars are in use almost every day, we cannot manage with just one car. We rarely put gas in the Volt, only when we are planning a trip beyond the 40-50 mi one-way capability of the RAV, i.e. when we are going to LA. The Volt runs 90+% on electricity when we stay in Bakersfield. I have almost never used a public charger until you installed the JdeMO, and only on three occasions since (and that includes the return trip from Carson when you installed the JdeMO). With the current pricing structure of the Flex plan, there is little incentive for me to maximize eVgo usage as I go to LA less that once a month. You, on the other hand frequently use their service, and as I said, if you use more than 75 minutes a month, the subscription service is a bargain. My proposal is to reduce the price of the Flex service so as to convince people to use it more often.

I assume that I am not unique, that many EV families have two cars, and unless one is a Tesla, the non-EV car is used for most of the out-of-town trips. eVgo may be losing money on their system, but they will lose it less quickly if they can convince these two car families to use the EV more on longer trips. One way to do that is to reduce the cost. It is the same as taxes. When the tax rate is lowered, the economy perks up and tax revenue increases. The way to reduce the usage of a product is to increase its cost.

eVgo may have thought that by increasing the cost of the Flex plan they would move people over to the subscription plan, but for many people the idea of paying $14.95 a month for a service that just isn't used doesn't make any sense. They should instead make the Flex plan more attractive, and people might find that they are using the service more often and would then move to the subscription plan.

Mike

 

[miimura]

My feeling is that the demand for EVgo is not that elastic. Changing the pricing as you propose will not make a meaningful difference in usage. Either you need their service or you don't. If you need it rarely, like me, you just use the Flex plan and pay what it costs. If you need it often enough, you pay the monthly fee. It sucks to be in between, but I can see why there is little motivation for them to introduce yet another plan.

Honestly, if I were in your situation with the RAV and the Volt, I would not have paid the money to get the Jdemo. My wife and I are all electric, so getting the Jdemo was the best option to use one of our own vehicles for trips between 100 and 400 miles. If I hadn't developed such a distaste for ICE, I would have saved the money and just rented a car when we wanted to go take a trip like that. Anything more than 400 miles and I'm strongly inclined to fly and rent a car and always have been.

 

[davewill]

If the settlement with the state didn't require a per charge fee structure I doubt they would have it. They didn't in Texas for the longest time.

 

[Michael Bornstein]

Honestly, if I were in your situation with the RAV and the Volt, I would not have paid the money to get the Jdemo.

I had several reasons to get the JdeMO, not all of them practical.

I enjoy technology, having degrees in Physics, Engineering, and Medicine. The RAV4 seemed naked without a CHAdeMO port, so I corrected it.

I similarly am a ham (K6UMO) with an Elecraft K3 system. Unfortunately, I have very little time to get on the air.

I wanted to support Tony's business. The big auto makers aren't shouldering the weight of EV development to the extent that they should, so it is important for us to support the smaller entrepreneurs that can help develop the necessary systems.

Now, if I can only convince my wife that EV travel is cool, I will be using the JdeMO more often :lol:

 

[Larry_in_Seattle]

Michael,
Thank you for being supportive of Tony and EV development in general. Being not only able, but willing to support things "just because" is admirable in my opinion. Not everyone can do it, so when someone does, it bears a shout out! People working together on a common cause is one of the best things in life.

The JdeMO for me was a no-brainer. Daily job commute made the LEAF in Winter a losing proposition. Larger sales territory sealed the deal.

Larry
N7RKW

 

[miimura]

Honestly, if I were in your situation with the RAV and the Volt, I would not have paid the money to get the Jdemo.

I had several reasons to get the JdeMO, not all of them practical.

I enjoy technology, having degrees in Physics, Engineering, and Medicine. The RAV4 seemed naked without a CHAdeMO port, so I corrected it.

I similarly am a ham (K6UMO) with an Elecraft K3 system. Unfortunately, I have very little time to get on the air.

I wanted to support Tony's business. The big auto makers aren't shouldering the weight of EV development to the extent that they should, so it is important for us to support the smaller entrepreneurs that can help develop the necessary systems.

Now, if I can only convince my wife that EV travel is cool, I will be using the JdeMO more often :lol:

I was the same way - I thought that the Jdemo should be done and put a deposit in the first round to support Tony. I figured there was a real chance that I would give up my spot and get my deposit back, but now that we don't have an ICE vehicle and it looks like fast chargers will actually be in place to get me to Tahoe and LA by the middle of 2016, I'm really excited to get it installed and use it.