cossie1600
Well-known member
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They are offering a $52K car for $33K + $2500 and HOV and you want more? What else do you want? Do you want it for free?
eugenepan said:
$17,500 off by 1 Dec 2014, Production Ended August 2014
- Thread starter TonyWilliams
- Start date
Help Support Toyota Rav4 EV Forum:
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
cossie1600 said:
I've seen this a lot with EVs... the person acknowledges that it's cheaper with more benefits than a comparable oil car, and then complains that it must save some nebulous bigger value or they'll "Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM)".
4EVEREV
Well-known member
eugenepan said:
There are more reasons for many people to buy an EV besides cost per mile. I have owned four factory EVs and will not ever own another ICE. Value is not just cost per mile. What is too much? How do you set that exact number? As Tony said they will sell all these cars and likely won't need to give any better deals.
mark_rivers19
Well-known member
eugenepan said:
I have the perfect vehicle for you. And it's 85mpg.
Vespa LX 50 4V
cossie1600
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Toyota has to sell 2600 of these in 3 years. Let's round up and say they have to sell 100 per month to meet that goal. Heck let's make it 200 per month from today on. Given the aggressive rebates already net them that amount per month, you think they need to sell it for less? Go buy a Chevy sonic if you strictly want the cheapest operating cost.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Tadol said:
You can have one:
When you attach the respective Tesla $45 plug, the portable **Tesla UMC** will automatically provide the following amperage:
..................................................VOLTS / AMPS..........kW
NEMA 5-15 .......Standard Outlet 110 V / 12 A...... 1.4 kW
NEMA 14-50......RVs and Camps. 240 V / 40 A...... 9.6 kW
NEMA 6-50 .......Welding Equip... 240 V / 40 A...... 9.6 kW
NEMA 10-30......Older Dryers...... 240 V / 24 A...... 5.8 kW
NEMA 14-30......Newer Dryers..... 240 V / 24 A...... 5.8 kW
If you want to use the 40 amp portable Tesla UMC to charge your Rav4 EV, just buy the Tesla Model S UMC from Tesla and also buy the Dostar 50 amp J1772 plug from TucsonEV. Have them both drop shipped to me; there is no need to ship them to you first. Be sure and get whatever additional NEMA wall plug you want from Tesla (typically 6-50, 14-30, and 10-30, each about $45 from Tesla).
You can order the Model S UMC package for $650 online here:
http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s-charging-adapters
TESLA PN: 1025821-00-A
Contents:
1 Mobile Connector Main Unit
1 NEMA 14-50 Adapter
1 NEMA 5-15 Adapter
1 Storage Bag
Or buy just the UMC from a Tesla Service Center for $480 plus $45 for the NEMA plug you want. NOTE: this will require a VIN from a Tesla Model S or they won't sell you one.
Order the Dostar 50 amp J1772 for $135 from http://www.TucsonEV.com.
***************
NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED!!! Tesla will not warranty the UMC if it fails and neither will I. Caveat emptor!!! No warranty for merchantability. Offered and sold "as-is" and "with all faults". May cause cancer in the state of California.
***************
When you buy the hardware and pay whatever taxes, if any, you own it and I never did, therefore I have no tax obligation to bill back to you. I will never own your products that you send me. Services are tax free here in California, so there's no tax liability for me.
I accept no responsibility if the Tesla product shows up not working, before or after my work. Nothing I do affects the operation of the UMC electrically. Services are tax free here in California, so there's no tax liability for me.
Shipping address:
Anthony Williams
12656 Sabre View Cove
San Diego, CA 92128-4160
PayPal or a check for $235 for the conversion and return shipping with $1000 insurance. If you include a prepaid return shipping label (preferred), then the cost is only $200.
The turn around will be at least a week. I typically do the work in groups of 5 to 10.
NO WARRANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED!!! Tesla will not warranty the UMC if it fails. Thankfully, the J1772 plug is unlikely to fail, but the Tesla warranty claims on UMC's are high. You have been warned. Caveat emptor!!!
If the UMC does fail, take it to Tesla and try and ask REALLY nicely to swap it for a new one. When they invariably tell you "no", ship it to me for a free evaluation on what to do next. Again, no warranty expressed or implied. Caveat emptor!
I am not sure how you are counting. How do you arrive from $52k to $33k?
Why are people taking it so personal? Obviously, there are many people and Toyota included who realize that the RAV4 - EV is not selling well. One reason is that people think the price is too high. Of course, there are other reasons, too. If a car has $15,400 worth of rebate plus $2500 of tax credit for a savings of $17,900 forgetting about the sales tax, and it only sells 167 for the month, then there is extremely low demand for the vehicle. The high priced Tesla was selling 400/wk, but that number seems to be dropping rapidly also, at least in the US, which seems to show saturation. With the Nissan Leaf SL leasing for a similar cost to the Toyota RAV4, and with the MSRP being so much less, what does that say about the Toyota?
Based on the numbers from an earlier post, the numbers for August was 231 and for September was 167. The terms were the same, but there was nearly a 30% drop in sales. Now with the price increasing by over 10% - $299 - $339 and $3999 - $4999, and with usually slower sales in the winter, and with the next model year about to be introduced, it seems logical that the number of RAV4 sales should drop dramatically. If that happens, then they will need to lower the price, and if they lower the price enough, then maybe I will consider one.
If people are really being green and the car is such a great deal, why are so many people from Northern California buying the car for a few dollars cheaper out of Southern California. There are at least 50 cars in the Northern California area. With the shipping from Southern Cal to Northern of $150-$200 plus all of that additional fossil fuel cost, it isn't being green, and the savings are way less than the huge increase in this months lease offer.
I think people are buying from SoCal to save $200-$400, total over the life of the entire lease, but everyone is complaining when I am talking about a >$2800 increase in this months lease offer. Please keep it in perspective.
The last 3 or 4 posts talk about NoCal people buying from Dianne. Can some of them post their estimated savings over buying from someone in the Bay area?
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
eugenepan said:
There is a danger to not knowing all the facts and reaching conclusions. The US sales are down because Tesla has begun shipping overseas. Production is still at maximum.
4EVEREV
Well-known member
TonyWilliams said:
Where is the $135 price? I keep seeing $155.
TonyWilliams said:
Maybe, that is the reason, maybe it isn't. Just a couple of quarters ago before he stopped providing this information, Elon Musk stated that there was a backlog of 15,000 cars and they were adding cars to the backlog as quickly as they were delivering them. He also stated that they are producing cars at 5000/quarter which seems to be the current rate. So, by my calculations, if you put your name on the list, you can't get a car for at least 9 months. Also, with your position that it is all due to overseas order, my friend placed an order for a Tesla, and he got it within one month, so I am not sure that your conclusion that it is only due to shipping overseas is valid. Based on my friend's experience, if someone in the US wants a Tesla, they can get it pretty quickly, so it appears that there is now currently, virtually no backlog. I wonder if you can special order a car from GM, Ford, or Dodge and get it in only 1 month.
Anyway, my opinion doesn't matter. The facts will eventually come to light. We will see if there is the great demand for electric vehicles or not in time. I am not taking things personally, but others seem to be. I am trying to give my reasoned response for not buying a RAV4 EV, and those reasons are valid for me. Maybe they are not valid for the others on this forum. I am not sure why people don't want to hear why it isn't selling. There was a whole thread on this topic, and now I have added an individual opinion to the mix.
The fact of the matter is that 167 vehicles/month is atrocious. At that rate, it will take 10 more months to sell the additional 1600 cars. So, I have time to wait for a better offer. However, I think that rate will drop and I will have even more time to think about it. The reality is that we can come back here 1 month from now and see who is correct. We don't have to call each other names or anything like that. We can just read the chart and be civil about it.
cossie1600 said:
If I want the cheapest overall cost, I will buy a highly reliable 3 yr old vehicle which gets good mileage. I feel that an EV has limited functionality, and so with most things that have limited functionality, I don't want to pay too much for it. Other people feel differently and there is nothing wrong with that, but why can't you respect other people's opinion. I have never bad mouthed anyone who has purchased a RAV4EV, can you do the same to others.
I am not sure how you arrive at your demand numbers going forward. In August, the first month of the super aggressive lease offer, the monthly lease cost went from $599 - $299, a savings of $10,764, and they managed to sell 231 vehicles. In September, the second month of the same lease terms, the number of cars dropped to 167. I think it is a fairly safe assumption that if they maintained the deal the number of cars sold would drop below 167, but that is just my opinion. However, they are increasing the price by 36*$40 + $1000, which is $2440 more, so that is why I am assuming the number of cars sold in October will be much lower. I will put it on record that I think it will be less than 100, and I think it will be closer to 50.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
4EVEREV said:
That's my price from TucsonEV. Just tell give them my shipping address and remind them of the $135 price.
I get regular shipments from them.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
eugenepan said:
I will go with 100 to 150 for October.
knrav4ev
Member
There is nothing wrong to be mindful of finance.. If I have to give away my money to help the environment, hello, no thanks..
If I understand correct, the poster (eugeanpan, I believe) is trying to say that ( lease on RAV4 EV - gas savings ) should be less than or equal to lease cost on RAV4 ICE.. otherwise, you are just throwing the money away for others to enjoy..
This is exactly what I did when I leased.. I figured my lease cost of $280+tax ($3999 down, 3yr/3600 mi) with around ~$80-$100/mo gas savings is comparable to leasing RAV4 ICE
thanks.
cossie1600
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Going by your logic, no one should be paying more than $15K for a car as a Corolla is cheaper than most new cars out there. You buy cars out of passion, finance comes into play a lot, but I doubt it is the only factor.
Toyota has sold what, 1200 cars so far, which means they have to sell about 2400 more in the next let say 15 months. 2400/15=160 units give or take. It's been shown that with the last $15400 incentives they can push 150-200 units a month. Heck, they pushed 100+ when they had $10K in March. I don't know what planet you come from, but what do you want them to do, lower it to a point of the regular RAV4 so your cost benefit analysis turn green?!? I understand everyone wants the best deal, yet won't apply any common sense logic. [moderator edit: delete]
As far as the sales figure, the closest comparison is the Ford Focus EV as that is the other compliance car that is priced closest to the RAV4 after incentives. They are what, $35K with a $10K lease cash bonus and they are selling neck and neck with the RAV4. Also this car is strictly built for CA, sales figure will always be low as it wasn't meant to be mass produced.
If you want to talk numbers and features, keep in mind the RAV4 EV is equipped like a mid to high level RAV4. The equivalent version RAV4 probably goes for $27K after discounts. At last month's rate, the EV sold for about $33K. The majority of the difference can be made up in gas cost alone over three years. Of course the RAV4 ICE has the advantage of being a regular car that can keep going while the EV is limited to 100-120 miles. But then you can't buy a HOV sticker with the ICE car. It's just something you have to put a value to it.
Toyota has sold what, 1200 cars so far, which means they have to sell about 2400 more in the next let say 15 months. 2400/15=160 units give or take. It's been shown that with the last $15400 incentives they can push 150-200 units a month. Heck, they pushed 100+ when they had $10K in March. I don't know what planet you come from, but what do you want them to do, lower it to a point of the regular RAV4 so your cost benefit analysis turn green?!? I understand everyone wants the best deal, yet won't apply any common sense logic. [moderator edit: delete]
As far as the sales figure, the closest comparison is the Ford Focus EV as that is the other compliance car that is priced closest to the RAV4 after incentives. They are what, $35K with a $10K lease cash bonus and they are selling neck and neck with the RAV4. Also this car is strictly built for CA, sales figure will always be low as it wasn't meant to be mass produced.
If you want to talk numbers and features, keep in mind the RAV4 EV is equipped like a mid to high level RAV4. The equivalent version RAV4 probably goes for $27K after discounts. At last month's rate, the EV sold for about $33K. The majority of the difference can be made up in gas cost alone over three years. Of course the RAV4 ICE has the advantage of being a regular car that can keep going while the EV is limited to 100-120 miles. But then you can't buy a HOV sticker with the ICE car. It's just something you have to put a value to it.
mark_rivers19
Well-known member
I don't want to go into the RAV4 EV vs RAV4 ICE debate because it can take a whole day.
Each buyer has a bunch of reasons why they ended up with the decision to purchase, whether it's for a RAV4EV or a Lexus L600h ($120,000) but hey it's a Hybrid.
IF you're main reason is to save fuel BUT you only drive less than 10,000 miles a year, a Toyota Prius C maybe the perfect car for you.
Other ICE are boasting on close to 40mpg highway. Honda Civic, new Mazda 3, Hyundai Elantra, Ford Focus, new Corolla, Chevy Cruze and the list goes on.
There's also "Diesel" if you do mostly highway.
MY reasons for getting one.
1. Cheaper than a Tesla S
2. I love the dedicated EV parking spaces on most shopping malls (although it's getting FULL everytime)
3. Environmental
4. Political ( a middle finger on wheels) to every Hummer and gas guzzlers out there.
@ OP, I honestly believe he'll be better served with a "lease" on a Compact sedan. A mazda 3 with skyactive technology gets 40mpg highway. Monthly payments will be low, as well as the cost for fuel.
Each buyer has a bunch of reasons why they ended up with the decision to purchase, whether it's for a RAV4EV or a Lexus L600h ($120,000) but hey it's a Hybrid.
IF you're main reason is to save fuel BUT you only drive less than 10,000 miles a year, a Toyota Prius C maybe the perfect car for you.
Other ICE are boasting on close to 40mpg highway. Honda Civic, new Mazda 3, Hyundai Elantra, Ford Focus, new Corolla, Chevy Cruze and the list goes on.
There's also "Diesel" if you do mostly highway.
MY reasons for getting one.
1. Cheaper than a Tesla S
2. I love the dedicated EV parking spaces on most shopping malls (although it's getting FULL everytime)
3. Environmental
4. Political ( a middle finger on wheels) to every Hummer and gas guzzlers out there.
@ OP, I honestly believe he'll be better served with a "lease" on a Compact sedan. A mazda 3 with skyactive technology gets 40mpg highway. Monthly payments will be low, as well as the cost for fuel.
eugenepan said:
They sell to how much inventory they have. The fact that they are increasing prices means they want to slow down how fast the cars are selling based on the time period they have left to sell the cars. The 2014 models are slated to come in at a fixed point, the 2013 models need to sell out by then. Seems to me they are a lot closer to selling out. The 2014 model prices will most likely go up, then based on how fast they are selling there will be discounts. Not easy to assess how they will sell next year. Maybe they add target marketing dollars and reduce the discount. If you want to gamble and wait a year to try and save a a little money over three years, that's your prerogative. Even by your high cost of operation estimates, you are losing $1000 by not driving the car each year.
cossie1600
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- Aug 22, 2013
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Oops sorry can't add lol, at least I estimated on the high side
