Lemon Law, Arbitration, Song-Beverly, Magnuson-Moss Warranty

[miimura]

The question is, will Tony turn around and lease another one after they buy back the one he has now. He probably paid a whole lot for it compared to what you can get it for now.

 

[srl99]

Similar experience w a Fiat. I would NEVER touch another FIAT, nor recommend to anyone but an enemy.

I find it interesting you're going to arbitration ?to get rid of the vehicle? but you're not advising to stay away from R4EV-II.

That's a bit short sighted, and knee jerk, to say since some cars have a LOT of problems to not buy any, don't you think? I recommend leasing only (don't buy) if you're comfortable with the numerous issues. Knowledge is power.

Every car carries some risk that it will be a lemon. The Rav4 EV just has a far higher chance, IMHO.

I've been involved with the LEAF since day one, and even though I think the batteries are grossly under-engineered for the job in hot areas, I still recommend it for a lease.

Yes, I'm going to arbitration to "get rid of the vehicle". If that's not successful, I'll likely go to court.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Good news for out-of-state buyers!!! Since ALL the Rav4 EVs were actually purchased in California, therefore they are ALL eligible for California Lemon Law!!!!

 

[ground_gainer]

Good news for out-of-state buyers!!! Since ALL the Rav4 EVs were actually purchased in California, therefore they are ALL eligible for California Lemon Law!!!!

Great news... What is the period of time you have to give it back under the Lemon Law?

How did your arbitration go today?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Good news for out-of-state buyers!!! Since ALL the Rav4 EVs were actually purchased in California, therefore they are ALL eligible for California Lemon Law!!!!

Great news... What is the period of time you have to give it back under the Lemon Law?

How did your arbitration go today?

You have 18 months or 18,000 miles.

Arbitration went well. Toyota had a lawyer and a technical guy who had been with Toyota for 40 years!!! Definitely a company man ;-)

My side had my wife and I, plus 4 observers. They was a surprise visit from the state dispute resolution program to monitor, then three fellow EV drivers:

1 - Spark EV
1 - Rav4 EV
1 - LEAF + Rav4 EV

It lasted about 3 hours. I'll get the results within 10 days. Toyota will have 20 to comply with the arbitrator's decision. The decision is binding on Toyota, and optional for me.

 

[keith5885]

Good news for out-of-state buyers!!! Since ALL the Rav4 EVs were actually purchased in California, therefore they are ALL eligible for California Lemon Law!!!!

Great news... What is the period of time you have to give it back under the Lemon Law?

How did your arbitration go today?

You have 18 months or 18,000 miles.

Arbitration went well. Toyota had a lawyer and a technical guy who had been with Toyota for 40 years!!! Definitely a company man ;-)

My side had my wife and I, plus 4 observers. They was a surprise visit from the state dispute resolution program to monitor, then three fellow EV drivers:

1 - Spark EV
1 - Rav4 EV
1 - LEAF + Rav4 EV

It lasted about 3 hours. I'll get the results within 10 days. Toyota will have 20 to comply with the arbitrator's decision. The decision is binding on Toyota, and optional for me.

Can you go into any detail or interesting points that Toyota made?

Sorry to hear such an enthusiast like yourself got a lemon.

Curious what exact percent of Rav4 EVs have had no problems at all. Our forum online survey seems way lopsided.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Can you go into any detail or interesting points that Toyota made?

Sorry to hear such an enthusiast like yourself got a lemon.

Curious what exact percent of Rav4 EVs have had no problems at all. Our forum online survey seems way lopsided.

I've got a lot going on right now; family emergency, plus preparing for this arbitration, building UMCs, just had Plug In Day, we had the grand opening of the first California public Frankenplug, plus the big Plug In 2013 convention here in San Diego.

I'll do a write up when I get a decision. The funniest thing from Toyota was the notion that you ONLY use Leviton charge stations, you never charge in "the wild", and only drive the car 50 miles out and back from your house.

 

[Ampster]

The Toyota technical guy reads this forum and tried to turn some of Tony's earlier comments against him. The arbitrator does not read this forum and is independant. I respect Tony's decision to not say a lot until after the arbitrators decision.

EDIT
There were two RAV4EV owneers there, one of whom also owns a Leaf.

 

[Blastphemy]

The Toyota technical guy reads this forum

So then he must know how crappy the charge system and radio interface are. Too bad the technical guy isn't using this forum as a source of guidance for how to improve the substandard product he produces. The Tesla drivetrain and battery go only so far in making this car appealing. Hey, Toyota Technical Guy - when are you gong to fix all the problems we've been reporting on this forum?!!?

 

[TonyWilliams]

The Toyota technical guy reads this forum

So then he must know how crappy the charge system and radio interface are. Too bad the technical guy isn't using this forum as a source of guidance for how to improve the substandard product he produces. The Tesla drivetrain and battery go only so far in making this car appealing. Hey, Toyota Technical Guy - when are you gong to fix all the problems we've been reporting on this forum?!!?

Keep in mind, in the arbitration, there is no talk of fixing anything. Toyota, like me, is only concerned with winning at that point. To that end result, they needed to counter each of the points for Lemon Law:

1. Safety
2. More than 30 days in the shop
3. 4 or more visits per repair

Believe me, while I won't call them outright liars, they did their best to expose anything favorable to their side and overlook things that don't support their case. This is absolutlely normal in a court type situation for each side.

MUD SLINGING

Virtually all of the Toyota presentation was taken directly from this forum. Most of it was a smear campaign to paint me as a dangerous loony-toon who is reckless and dangerous with their warranted product. It was brought up that I "cut the 120 volt cord" that Toyota supplies (with their garbage 12 amp unit intended for the Plug-In Prius) and that I modify it without offering any warranty. I'm not making this one up, folks. Of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with any of the warranty issues of the car... it's just a smear campaign.

While I made the record clear that I don't cut their cord (or even use their unit) with the Tesla UMC modified to J1772, the potential outcome with an arbitrator who is not technically inclined can be bad, as they well know. This is good old fashioned mud slinging, hoping something will stick.

Toyota brought up that I offered to send my Gateway ECU to Hawaii to help one of our stranded Rav4 owners. More mud for something that has absolutely no impact to the warranty repairs, nor did this actually happen. It's sad that I had to consider helping a stranded Rav4 owner (when his issue was clearly a warranty claim).

Of course, he had pictures from this forum of me opening up the Gateway ECU from last November, and suggested that I may have electro-statically killed it. Of course, it worked from 6 more months before they replaced it with a "Check EV System" dead vehicle. The arbitrator merely asked if they replaced it under warranty, and I said yes, so I don't think this particular smear piece went very far.

He mentioned how I disconnected the 12 volt battery when my car shut down which cleared all the DTC codes. I'm not completely sure I actually believe this happens, but maybe he's right. But, the real reason he brought that up was to drop the idea into the arbitrators mind that I was somehow covering something up (it wasn't actually mentioned exactly what that might be, by the way). Just more smear campaign.

Toyota mentioned that towing is not approved, yet I was abusing their car towing "1200 pounds" that I had mentioned on here as a limit for towing (because of the issues surrounding braking). Of course, they had highlighted that the car itself can hold 800-ish pounds, so clearly I'm overloading the car and that's why the car is failing. Try explaining the intricacies of determining these issues to a non-tech arbitrator... to him/her, they may be inclined to just side with the "all knowing manufacturer" and not with the crazy auto killer dude that Toyota worked hard to portray.

The reason they spent $40,000 in warranty repairs on my car was because they are nice guys, not because they were required to. Therefore, they asked for 7 days to be removed from the tally, which would become less than 30 days total. I don't recall off hand exactly which one of the many issues this specific seven days applied to.

They also claimed that a Blink charge station was SPECIFICALLY not approved according to their "Tech Tip" (see below). Of course, he was reading from a July 2013 amended version of the Oct 30, 2012 release of that information, where they specifically excluded the Blink for now obvious reasons (because it can burn your house down). Thankfully, one of our esteemed observers to the event looked up the original and it was presented to the arbitrator showing Blink on the list. Naturally, he claimed that wasn't from Toyota!!! No, I don't think the arbitrator bought that, either.

But, according to Toyota, you're not supposed to use anything but Leviton. The basic story they gave the arbitrator was that you are supposed to charge at home with your approved Leviton unit and drive 50 miles maximum to the "point of no return" and then go home so that you never use a public charger. That's it.

They didn't address why there are public chargers in the Entunes app that are displayed on navigation screen to the driver. I presented that there aren't any Leviton charge stations in "the wild" to use. My wife showed the arbitrator the PlugShare app, also.

The Toyota rep got into a discussion about charge times and battery temperatures that the arbitrator finally interrupted to say that I hadn't complained about that.

The Toyota guy then tried to explain the fuel gauge issue, suggesting it was like fuel sloshing around in a tank and would take time to go from 80% to 100% (I'm not even sure he understood the issue at all).

There was plenty more, but the bottom line is that Toyota will use anything they think will win the case. These aren't right and wrong issues for Toyota, but merely who wins.

For Toyota, WIN OR LOSE, THEY STILL GET 3 CARB-ZEB CREDITS, which is the singular reason the car exists. Win, win for them!

*********************************************

Tech Tip T-TT-0206-12 October 30, 2012

CONDITION

Some customers may complain of a 'Check EV System' message illuminating after attempting to charge their vehicle at a public charging station.

Toyota is investigating this issue.

RECOMMENDATIONS

Leviton Mfg. is the Toyota-approved supplier for Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE), that is, EV charging stations.

Leviton's Level 2 (240V) 40A, 30A and 16A Toyota Program models and EVR-green series have been extensively tested and approved for use with the Toyota RAV4 EV and Prius Plug-in Hybrid Vehicle.

While there are numerous EVSEs offered in the market, only the Leviton models specified above have been approved.

However, the following Level 2 charging stations* have completed a basic level of confirmation with the Toyota RAV4 EV and should function properly: Manufacturer Models

AeroVironment Level 2 EVSE-RS
Blink / ECOtality Level 2 Charge Station
Charge Point / Coulomb Technologies CT2000 Series
Clipper Creek CS Series
Eaton Pow-R-Station (Commercial), EV Charging Station (Residential)
Schneider Electric EVlink Indoor Charging Station (EV2430WS)

*This list is subject to change Toyota will continue to conduct basic testing on other manufacturers' Level 2 charging stations to identify those charging stations that are compatible with the RAV4 EV.

RECOMMENDATIONS

If you determine that the 'Check EV System' message may be displayed because the vehicle driver used an incompatible charging station, the message can be cleared using the following procedure:

(Note: The 'Check EV System' message can be displayed for various reasons – check for other causes and codes before utilizing the clearing procedure outlined below.)

Disconnect the EVSE from the vehicle.
IG ON (with foot removed from brake pedal, press and release start button once, wait 1 second, press and release start button again).
Wait 10 seconds for the system to complete the start-up check.
IG OFF (with foot removed from brake pedal, press and release start button).
Wait 1 second.
Repeat steps 2-5 four times to clear the warning message. On the fourth IG-ON event, the warning message should no longer be displayed.

Contact TAS if issue is still present after this message clearing process.

LINK REFERENCES

This Tech Tip does not contain any link references.

**************************************

 

[Philly RAV4 EV]

Every Rav EV owner always remember and never forget. "TOYOTA is and always will be the ENEMY"

 

[TonyWilliams]

Every Rav EV owner always remember and never forget. "TOYOTA is and always will be the ENEMY"

I don't think that's fair. It's a profitable company that normally makes a high quality, high value product for the world.

The motivation for the Rav4 EV is just different. It's not profitable and not high quality because it doesn't have to be. Making it high quality would just cost Toyota money; 2600 will get sold with high or low quality, so guess which one you get?

 

[user 340]

The development of the RAV4EV was certainly rushed, but I don't think that Toyota intended it to be a low quality product. The Toyota elements of the car have proved to be pretty solid, but the Tesla bits have been failing at an alarming rate. I don't mean to apologise for Toyota, but they should get a little credit for working to get everybody's car fixed when failures have occurred.

 

[Philly RAV4 EV]

Tony you yourself have stated at the arbitration they did a lot of mud slinging and tried to blame you for doing things to your Rav. They have tried and are still trying not to service out of state owners of EVs. So do you think they are your FRIENDS!

 

[Blastphemy]

Toyota must be given credit for single-handedly creating the "green" hybrid car market with its successful Prius (supplanting GM's EV1 after that shortsighted company made one of the worst business decisions in its history killing and crushing that groundbreaking product just before gas shot up precipitously).

But Toyota must also bear the shame of creating such an anemic, boring car (the same Prius) and never improving it beyond necessary updates. The Chevy Volt is what most Prius drivers wish they had (aside from the back seat), and former EV1 drivers at least have the Nisssan Leaf.

Middle class drivers can afford the poor man's Tesla (Toyota RAV4 EV), but those customers get what they pay for - a mere echo of the great car this could have been. Wealthy drivers have the Tesla Model S, and soon the Tesla Model X will steal the RAV4 EV's limited thunder.

Based on my experience with Toyota - the RAV4 EV being my first exposure to this manufacturer - I won't be purchasing another vehicle from Toyota ever again. It's a cynical company that reads the market well and takes advantage of current trends, but also screws its customers once a car purchase is complete.

 

[Philly RAV4 EV]

Until Toyota takes full responsibility for the service/repairs for all the Rav4 EVs they are making, then "They are and will always be our Enemy"

 

[cwerdna]

Toyota must be given credit for single-handedly creating the "green" hybrid car market with its successful Prius (supplanting GM's EV1 after that shortsighted company made one of the worst business decisions in its history killing and crushing that groundbreaking product just before gas shot up precipitously).

But Toyota must also bear the shame of creating such an anemic, boring car (the same Prius) and never improving it beyond necessary updates. The Chevy Volt is what most Prius drivers wish they had (aside from the back seat), and former EV1 drivers at least have the Nisssan Leaf.

On the contrary... the Prius has improved significantly over the generations. We, in the US never got the NHW10 (JDM-only, almost a science experiment, had D-cell NiMH batteries, looks like the NHW11 on the outside, had no touchscreen, but rather buttons under the color LCD). We got these: NHW11 (1st gen Prius here in the US, 01-03 model year, sedan that looks like a Toyota Echo, which I wouldn't recommend anyone buy used at this time), NHW20 (the iconic hatchback design, 04-09 model year, LOTS of changes vs. NHW11), ZVW30 (current gen Prius that began with '10 model year, LOTS of changes too).

See below:
http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-history.htm
http://john1701a.com/prius/images/Prius-Generations.png

http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-presentations05.htm - discusses the changes that began on NHW20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6q1U6Gd3ec - video describing ZVW30 changes

http://priuschat.com/threads/prius-versions.88583/#post-1242903 - more on ZVW30 changes
http://priuschat.com/threads/prius-versions.88583/#post-1244717
http://priuschat.com/threads/prius-versions.88583/#post-1245402

Perhaps, you'd never noticed the NHW11 (lots of pics at http://john1701a.com/ under the earliest of his photo albums)? And, you didn't know about the massive # of changes w/the ZVW30?

Also, w/the '12 model year, the Prius became plural, w/3 extra family members: the c (smaller, Yaris based, cheaper)), v (bigger) and PiP (plug-in w/larger li-ion battery instead of small NiMH).

And, Toyota has branched out creating numerous other hybrids that use HSD, some w/WAY more power. See http://www.toyota.com/hybrid/ and http://www.lexus.com/hybrids/.

Notice where some of the faster Toyota and Lexus hybrids show up at http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2013/06/fuel-economy-vs-performance/index.htm?

I'm going to have to disagree with "The Chevy Volt is what most Prius drivers wish they had ". I had considered it before I leased my Leaf. I've written about why I decided against it... (too long to go into right now). I think the sales numbers at http://www.hybridcars.com/september-2013-dashboard/ of Priuses vs. Volts speak for themselves. Also note Prius' position in CA in 2012 at http://www.cncda.org/secure/GetFile.aspx?ID=2444 along w/3 million Priuses sold worldwide so far (http://www.autoblog.com/2013/07/07/toyota-sells-3-millionth-prius/), in addition to the 5 million Toyota hybrids sold (http://www.toyota-global.com/innovation/environmental_technology/hv5m/).

But seriously? "Most" Prius drivers that have a 50 mpg combined (mine is 46 mpg combined) mid-sized car that doesn't require premium would want a more expensive compact car that is rated at only 37 mpg combined, requires premium, seats only 4, has reliability from a car company known for very spotty reliability (vs. one known for high reliability), etc.?

 

[cwerdna]

Until Toyota takes full responsibility for the service/repairs for all the Rav4 EVs they are making, then "They are and will always be our Enemy"

Personally, if a particular car company is the enemy, then I think it's best to vote w/your wallet and feet by not supporting them. If Toyota's the enemy because of the Rav4 EV, how it's being serviced, treated, etc. don't buy it and don't lease it. That's arguably one of the more effective ways to get your message across to a for-profit company.

I don't like how the Rav4 EV is only a CA ZEV compliance car and has this goofy YMMV arrangement re: outside of CA service either, but Toyota's not unique here. You should see it from their business case POV though. IMHO, anyone outside buys or leases any CA compliance car in a market where the vehicle isn't officially sold is taking a substantial risk.

As I've posted somewhere before (here or MNL, probably), the 07 to 11 Nissan Altima Hybrid was also in a goofy similar position. It was only sold in a very limited # of states and Nissan's site even had something to the effect of, if you need service outside those states, there could be a delay. The car only sold in very small numbers, so if there are people in limbo/have hit servicing issues outside those markets, I haven't heard of them.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony you yourself have stated at the arbitration they did a lot of mud slinging and tried to blame you for doing things to your Rav. They have tried and are still trying not to service out of state owners of EVs. So do you think they are your FRIENDS!

It's business! I don't take it personally. I thanked Toyota for the professional and courteous service I've received to date on both this car, and previous Toyotas that I've owned over 30 years.

I also don't believe they intentionally thought this car would be so troublesome, however, it's clear they rushed it because they procrastinated getting started for 2012 model year CARB-ZEV compliance.

My charge port melted 3 weeks after delivery because they really didn't spend any time testing it. It's all part of the rush (and having the prototypes with Tesla Roadster plugs, instead of the Yazaki J1772 that's on the car now). They didn't use temperature safeguards on the plug (like Honda did for their 6.6kW car) because issues just didn't come up when there's limited testing (and would never come up with the 70 amp Roadster plug).

The timer issues are all Toyota.

The shutdown issues are probably all Tesla, but we honestly don't know that.

22 months, start to production. This is the result, and with extremely limited production and no corporate desire to make this car at all, the chances of fixing it are slim. Heck, production will actually end in 6-9 months. They are in crunch mode now to get the hydrogen compliance car out in 12 months.

Anyhoo, companies like Nissan and Tesla will actively address issues with their EVs because they want to be in that business. Toyota is loudly proclaiming to the world that they don't (see Monday's Wall Street Journal).

 

[Blastphemy]

On the contrary... the Prius has improved significantly over the generations.

The Prius has improved marginally, but the drivers are stereotypically some of the worst on the road. When my friends and I see a Prius on the road, we stay far away! The Prius fills its niche perfectly (hence the robust sales), but it's still the same sluggish, pretentious, overhyped hybrid it was eight years ago.

BTW, I have yet to meet a Volt owner who gets less than 250+ mpg. Of the twelve people I know who have a Volt, most buy gas three or four times per year and love beating cars left and right off the line...especially the Prius! Of course, those of us with RAV4 EVs don't have to get gas at all and beat 85% of the cars off the line, including many V8s (and the Volt!)

Regardless, as fast as the RAV4 EV is, the tires suck, the radio/Nav interface sucks, the charge timer system sucks, and Toyota's commitment to improving the vehicle is non-existent. It's a shame, because with just a little effort, Toyota could improve the RAV4 EV to the point that anyone thinking about a Tesla Model X would really have to question the need to pay such a premium. But Toyota has made it clear that we RAV4 EV owners are the suckers, and I don't make the same mistake twice - especially with "customer service" like that. I wish Tony all the success in the world with his arbitration.