Why the ##$$$##*** do they charge so much?

[Michael Bornstein]

I was planning a trip to Los Angeles, and since I am still waiting for the JdeMO, it would be in my Volt. I looked up the Howard Hughes Promenade on Plugshare and found that it had 4 spots with Clipper Creek chargers on the ChargePoint network. The picture accompanying the entry showed 4 pristine empty stalls. There were no comments from any users. Then I saw the price ...$2.50/hr for they first 3 hours then $5.00/hr. No wonder the stalls were empty..for a Volt or Leaf, that is way more expensive than gasoline. Even for a RAV4 with its 9.6 kW charger its still more expensive as that charger is likely putting out 6.2 or 7.2 kW.
Did the Promenade think they were catering to Howard Hughes himself?
Why would a business go to the expense of installing chargers and then price them so high that no one will ever use it?
Is this truly the state of public charger or is this an aberration?
I myself have almost never had to use a public charger (the one time I did, it was free), so I have to ask.

 

[fooljoe]

This is still a very nascent industry; companies have yet to figure out a model that works. Most of the public charging stations out there were put in with little thought as to usability - the facility owners probably had grant money to do the install, or just figured they'd throw a couple in for "green cred." It certainly would be nice if they gave it a little more thought - when I see charging stations like that it completely turns me off to the organization installing them, when they probably think they're reaping in goodwill from the EV community. But it is what it is.

Yet another reason why Tesla's approach with centralized control over both the cars and the charging infrastructure just blows the competition away.

 

[miimura]

I never use public chargers unless I REALLY NEED it. Be glad they're there, even at that price, because they will be available as long as they're not ICE'd. Free charging stations are usually full, so having some stations with different prices almost guarantees that some are available. There's nothing worse than not being able to charge at all when you're driving a BEV.

If you're driving the Volt, look around for a more reasonably priced charger. If you can't find one, just burn the gas.

 

[Michael Bornstein]

Unfortunately, I always plan to burn gas. The Volt has only a 3.3 kW charger and a 10 kWh effective battery. It takes about 4 hours to charge so at $4/gal of gas, I am only saving about $1/hr of charging. To make things worse, I have to use Mountain Mode on my trips to LA so that I can be certain that I can climb the Grapevine at speed (about 75 mph). Thus I am in LA with only a 1/2 discharged battery. Its just not worth my while to search for a charger to save $2. Unfortunately, the places I frequent dont have convenient public chargers, so I never plan to charge while in Los Angeles. With the JdeMO I can take a short sidetrip and recharge my RAV at near lightspeed, making it practical to take on longer trips. Thanks Tony!!

 

[smkettner]

Then I saw the price ...$2.50/hr for they first 3 hours then $5.00/hr. No wonder the stalls were empty..for a Volt or Leaf, that is way more expensive than gasoline. .

So a 5 hour charge gets you 100 miles for $15.
Or in a gas RAV4 you get 4.2 gallons and go 100 miles.
Ok it is not like at home but it is not that crazy.

 

[Incredulocious]

Then I saw the price ...$2.50/hr for they first 3 hours then $5.00/hr. No wonder the stalls were empty..for a Volt or Leaf, that is way more expensive than gasoline. .

So a 5 hour charge gets you 100 miles for $15.
Or in a gas RAV4 you get 4.2 gallons and go 100 miles.
Ok it is not like at home but it is not that crazy.

And if it keeps the stalls free of people just topping up for the hell of it, I'm all for it. Was/is very frustrating to find all the stalls full when you actually need a charge. The free ones are usually always occupied – it's the paid ones that you can actually sometimes find available, unless they're in a parking garage with few (or no) spaces remaining.

 

[Dsinned]

In my Volt, on trips longer than I have enough battery range for, I just drive on gas. Most of these trips are to a relative's house, so I bring my JuiceBox with me and charge from an electric dryer outlet, which helps to cut down on the needed gas. I have NEVER charged from public charging station that cost money. I have charged a few times from a freebie at a parking garage for the multiplex theater in downtown Redwood City. I would pay, "if" the public charging station fee was reasonably priced at say 25 cents per hour, maybe even a bit higher, but at $2.50 or more per hour? Forget it! I'll just buy the gas with no waiting required.

 

[miimura]

I would pay, "if" the public charging station fee was reasonably priced at say 25 cents per hour, maybe even a bit higher, but at $2.50 or more per hour? Forget it! I'll just buy the gas with no waiting required.

PG&E commercial electric rates are $0.20 to $0.25/kWh without demand charges. That puts a 6kW charging station at $1.20-$1.50/hr just to cover the electricity. If a station owner is not going to cover the electricity cost and the monthly network fees then they should just put install an inexpensive station with no access control and give away the power.

 

[Weekdayskier]

I would happily pay that price for the few times that I charge at a public station.

More often than not, I find that free EVSE's are occupied by whoever gets there first, simply because it's free. I've had to find other stations or return later many times because the space is blocked by a vehicle that is done charging.

Ideally, here's what I'd like to see in the public charging infrastructure.

kwh costs linked to the price of gasoline. Hourly costs really don't make sense to me, since different EV's have different charging needs.

A system to rotate vehicles at airports. A few of the local airport parking lots have their parking valets rotate the EV's. Everyone that wants a charge gets one. SFO may have 20 stations, but they are usually blocked by a vehicle for days at a time.

Time limits on free charging stations. I'd propose 2 hours for plug in hybrids, 4 hours for full EV's.

 

[davewill]

What a bunch of whiners! Look, I assure you that the operators of these stations are nowhere close to making enough money on them to make it worth the effort of running the business. It's either these prices, or all-you-can-eat monthly plans that half the participants don't use much so that they can subsidize the ones that do. You just can't expect public charging to be cheaper than gas, not until the infrastructure is completely built out and millions of people are using it. Then economies of scale will finally come into play and the prices will come down to be closer to retail electric rates.

For now, you have to be willing to use it because it's there, not because it's cheap.

 

[fromport]

What a bunch of whiners! Look, I assure you that the operators of these stations are nowhere close to making enough money on them to make it worth the effort of running the business.

You sound very certain about certain aspects.
Care to share what this is based upon ?
Do you own a charge station you exploit for money ?

 

[smkettner]

I have seen the costs of similar. I think davewill is spot on.
Far better return on investment to install solar.

 

[Michael Bornstein]

So a 5 hour charge gets you 100 miles for $15.
Or in a gas RAV4 you get 4.2 gallons and go 100 miles.
Ok it is not like at home but it is not that crazy.

You are assuming that the charger will deliver a full 9.6 kW like at home. Dream on. As stated on many previous threads, most public chargers are 208 V @ 30 A, or a total of 6.2 kW. The amount actually delivered to your battery is about 80-85% of that, or 5.0-5.3 kW. The cost of electricity and gasoline are comparable when electricity is about 10% the cost of gas.

Thus at $4/gal gas, electricity should be about $.40/kWh delivered, or $.32/kWh at the pump. That comes to $2.00/hr. At $2.50/hr or $.40/kWh at the pump this is still expensive for a RAV4 or a new Leaf (with a 6.6 kW charger). Older Leafs and Volts (as well as loads of other EVs) have only 3.3 kW chargers so this is extremely expensive.

The reason businesses place chargers in their lots is not just for the good feeling they get from getting gas guzzlers off the road, it is to attract customers. The situation is similar to the dynamic of why they have parking lots in the first place. People are more likely to stop by and BUY if they can park conveniently and perhaps charge. I have seen numerous threads where the writer stated that the reason one restaurant or supermarket was chosen over another was the presence of a convenient charging station. When the charger disappeared, they stopped driving out of their way, and went to a more convenient place.

Remember, we are not talking about chargers at train stations and airports, places where one HAS to be, we are taking about chargers in malls, supermarkets and restaurants, places where we have a choice of where we go.

 

[smkettner]

My RAV fills from Turtle to normal full in 5 hours on my 30a Schneider EVSE.
OK I am 240v not 208. Still not a huge premium.