Tony-Test: How to Calculate Rated Range/Battery Degradation

[a_mcclure]

BUMP

Was hoping to get some feedback on my post above.

Andy McClure
2014 Toyota Rav4 EV #3304, Blizzard Pearl
2017 Chevy Bolt Premier
Clipper Creek 24 Amp L2 EVSE

 

[miimura]

I don't know what happened with your Tony-Test. Maybe you didn't have the climate off? I did that the first time.

I suggest that you just charge to Standard every day unless you still have more than 7/8 battery left and don't need more the next day. That's the way I have been using the car for 5 years.

 

[a_mcclure]

Thanks @miimura for your comments. Seems like a good strategy.

I may be in the weeds, but I still find step 2 of the test confusing. It talks about battery temp, but it's unclear what one is supposed to do about it. Charge, then wait until it cools before performing the overnight step, or DON'T let it cool TOO much before performing the overnight step(?)

Anyway, just want to be sure I know how to do it right before bothering to do it again.

Andy

 

[TonyWilliams]

89% capacity is quite reasonable for a 3-4 year old battery.

Perhaps you know, but the rest of us have no idea what kind of ambient temperatures this Vehicle was exposed to. Was it in a hot place?

You are over thinking the battery temperature. We just want it somewhere around room temperature. Charging barely heats it at all, even at 125 amps DC using JdeMO. There is no “cooling step” in the Tony-Test.

If the battery was cold (below 60F / 15C), the battery heater will likely come on. If the battery is above about 90F / 35C, the air conditioner pump may run. So, just guesstimate if your battery is within these extremes.

Adding a data point, but also have a couple of questions. Purchased a 2014 Rav4 EV from original owner; approximately 32,000 miles. Did the Tony test and was a little disappointed that it came in at 130 or about 89%.

Can someone clarify about the battery and ambient temperatures comment? Is the overnight step the one that allows the cooling, or are the steps indicating that one should charge using extended charge, THEN allow it to sit and cool (then I assume try to charge some more) -- all before the overnight step? I did something in between, I suppose. Charged to standard level, then let sit for a few hours, then charged to extended level in the evening before disconnecting the battery and allowing it to sit overnight. Any insight would be appreciated.

Separately, I wonder if the following would be an advisable charging regimen:
- each night determine how much driving might be done the next day, including a cushion
- set the departure time for the next day late enough to accomplish the target level of charge in time for the REAL intended departure time
- plug in at night, then just unplug the next morning when it's time to leave even though charging is in progress

So if the car says it needs 3.5 hrs to charge to full, but I only want to charge it 2 hrs overnight, I would just set the departure time for 1.5 hrs after my intended departure time. Is it worth the effort, or is it not going to help the battery life any more than just charging to standard "full" level every time I feel it needs to charge? Is it a BAD idea to be regularly unplugging when the car is in an active charging mode?

Thanks in advance for any tips!

Andy McClure
2014 Toyota Rav4 EV #3304, Blizzard Pearl
2017 Chevy Bolt Premier
Clipper Creek 24 Amp L2 EVSE

 

[z3scot]

Just checked my replacement traction battery using the "Tony Test procedure".

My battery was just changed out last week at 52,500 miles on the original battery
I got 135/146=92.4% at 66 Degrees with about 1.5 hours disconnected.

The capacity is less than new but should last me another 5 years

Scott

 

[cossie1600]

So is Toyota/Tesla replacing battery pack with refurb units that carry less kwh? It seems like everyone who got a new battery already started with 3-4kwh less. I am getting about 92% of the original 41.8

 

[Jonathan_UK]

Just did the test after one year of ownership. For my '13 RAV with 80K miles, I got 130 miles (89%).

I've had JdeMo installed a year ago, and taken the car on many long road trips which has required frequent Quick charging, so while I would have preferred >90%, I'm not too disappointed.

 

[KurtManz]

sharing stats.
2014 with 37,500 came out with 137/146=94% after 1 year in the Seattle are (so... 1 non-california winter)

 

[miimura]

I finally got around to doing the "Tony Test" GOM reset. I got 138 miles. I have had the car for 42 months and 37,000 miles. The car was manufactured in 11/2012 according to the information plate at the bottom right of the driver's door opening.

138/146=94.5%

I just did an Extended charge about 7 hours after a Standard charge. It added 6 kWh in 47 minutes. That was more than I expected. Of course, that is energy from the wall, but it's still a lot of battery energy in the Extended portion.

I have nearly 45,000 miles on the car now.

I did the Extended Charge after Standard Charge again today with about 59,000 miles. It now shows 2.3kWh added from the wall.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Welcome to degradation.

 

[miimura]

Welcome to degradation.

Amen, brother. In the meantime, this car went from the role of our long distance car (vs. 84 mile AER 2015 e-Golf) to our short distance car (vs. 325 mile AER Model 3 LR). So, I'm not so bothered by the degradation. The fact that the California corridor fast chargers funded by the State are finally being built also helps.

 

[Rav4Frank]

2012 72K miles - first time doing the Tony test.

Car has been in CA and rarely charged to 100%, when I did I drove it within minutes or the charge finishing.

140 / 146 which is really awesome or too good to be true? Thoughts?

 

[TonyWilliams]

2012 72K miles - first time doing the Tony test.

Car has been in CA and rarely charged to 100%, when I did I drove it within minutes or the charge finishing.

140 / 146 which is really awesome or too good to be true? Thoughts?

Sounds awesome. I’ll guess that the climate isn’t hot where your car is.

 

[z3scot]

Just checked my replacement traction battery using the "Tony Test procedure".

My battery was just changed out last week at 52,500 miles on the original battery
I got 135/146=92.4% at 66 Degrees with about 1.5 hours disconnected.

The capacity is less than new but should last me another 5 years

Scott

Just rechecked my traction battery today using the Tony Test Procedure.

So today 3/24/24 my 2014 RAV4EV has 88,143 miles, the replacement battery was installed April 2018 at 52,500 miles, 6 years 35,643 miles ago.

Before starting the test, the battery was fully charged. When I set the mode to extended charge, the car display said it would charge for 1Hr 6 Min but only charged around 5 minutes before stopping.

Reconnecting the battery, the Energy "fuel" gauge showed 15 ticks, one less than full, and a displayed range of 98 Miles.

I am down to 98/146=67.1% at 64 degrees, disconnected overnight.

So after 6 years 35,643 miles, I have lost 25.3% battery capacity,

I tried charging after reconnecting the battery, but the car won't accept any more charge, even though the fuel gauge shows one tick down from full. Wish I could get the car to fully charge the battery, but maybe the battery is too degraded.

Scott

 

[alflash]

Just rechecked my traction battery today using the Tony Test Procedure.

So today 3/24/24 my 2014 RAV4EV has 88,143 miles, the replacement battery was installed April 2018 at 52,500 miles, 6 years 35,643 miles ago.

Before starting the test, the battery was fully charged. When I set the mode to extended charge, the car display said it would charge for 1Hr 6 Min but only charged around 5 minutes before stopping.

Reconnecting the battery, the Energy "fuel" gauge showed 15 ticks, one less than full, and a displayed range of 98 Miles.

I am down to 98/146=67.1% at 64 degrees, disconnected overnight.

So after 6 years 35,643 miles, I have lost 25.3% battery capacity,

I tried charging after reconnecting the battery, but the car won't accept any more charge, even though the fuel gauge shows one tick down from full. Wish I could get the car to fully charge the battery, but maybe the battery is too degraded.

Scott

I assume that it was not a new battery with SOH = 100% that was installed, but a refurbished one with unknown data about Lifetime Discharged Energy**. Therefore, this level of degradation is quite explainable/understandable.

* https://alflash.com.ua/2019/to_rav4ev/bat_data.png

**Have you been told the numerical value of these parameters of the “new” battery?

*** This video shows one of the unpleasant results of significant battery degradation (SOH = 60%)

 

[n3ckf]

Just rechecked my traction battery today using the Tony Test Procedure.

So today 3/24/24 my 2014 RAV4EV has 88,143 miles, the replacement battery was installed April 2018 at 52,500 miles, 6 years 35,643 miles ago.

Before starting the test, the battery was fully charged. When I set the mode to extended charge, the car display said it would charge for 1Hr 6 Min but only charged around 5 minutes before stopping.

Reconnecting the battery, the Energy "fuel" gauge showed 15 ticks, one less than full, and a displayed range of 98 Miles.

I am down to 98/146=67.1% at 64 degrees, disconnected overnight.

So after 6 years 35,643 miles, I have lost 25.3% battery capacity,

I tried charging after reconnecting the battery, but the car won't accept any more charge, even though the fuel gauge shows one tick down from full. Wish I could get the car to fully charge the battery, but maybe the battery is too degraded.

Scott

ive noticed that my original battery (101k miles, in a 2013) has quite similar numbers, i think the last time i did a tony test it was right around 100 miles too. overall thats decent performance for an 11 yr old battery and 100k) the newer chemistries do better, im expecting under 20% degradation at 100k on my Model 3 and i think newer ones are 10-15%. its a new technology and we are early adopters...

 

[JDP]

I’m also barely able to squeeze any more in on extended after a standard charge and 67k miles. Maybe 1kwh. I noticed it took a big hit after my battery went to nothing about a year ago. Seemed to lose 1-2kwh capacity after that event. It also seems to get just a bit more if I use the level 1 charger than my L2 at 40A.

I’ve thought about why these smaller batteries have a faster degradation. I think they experience more total charge cycles and charge at higher C rates relative to battery that’s 60-100kwh. Especially on JdeMO. So to me it makes sense they are getting tired so early. Makes me wonder about our plug-in hybrid that goes to full “0” daily (which is more like 30% SOC from my best guess) and how long that will last. It’s only 18kwh and range loss also seems to be significant after 42k miles, about 30k is probably electric only.

Hoping one day for a battery replacement option and maybe a new motor option…

 

[n3ckf]

This isnt particularly early. Ive probably only used JDEMO about 30-40 times on my vehicle. If you look at laptop batteries (same chemistry) they ALSO degrade somewhat similarly (actualy the Tesla batteries degrade less because of the cooling system). Also: at some point, Extended range will stop giving you ANY extra miles and it will make intermittent charging errors. (for a short time). It goes away when the battery degrades so it doesnt reach the extended charge threshold at all anymore. (which happened to me a couple years ago)