Range Chart

[TonyWilliams]

I'm posting these two pictures for folks who want to correlate the predicted range with reality. The first picture was taken this morning, after pulling a 6x12 foot box trailer a short distance yesterday. The second picture is after a 12 volt battery disconnect, which reset the meters to their default of 3.5 miles per kWh multiplied by 41.8 kWh. In both cases, the "gas gauge" shows full:

 

[Dsinned]

Tony, I think the reason the battery discconnect default is 3.5mi/kWh is so when these cars are first sold by the dealers, or used for test drives, after the first full charge while still at the dealership, an unsuspecting customer will see a much better than expected (or EPA rated) driving range. This would most likely result in that customer being extremely impressed with the RAV4 EV, although not realizing that its initial driving efficiency will drop, appreciably - closer to the EPA's rating - depending on how they drive it, by the next time it is fully charged again.

A "sustained" average efficiency of "3.5" is a very high number to maintain, that implies hypermiling will be practiced almost religiously. Of course, that goes right out the window the minute the driver discover the "sport" mode and seemingly becomes intoxinated by the thrill of driving a Tesla infused SUV electrified powertrain. After driving the car like that for a while, the next refresh charge will net a much lower, realistic range. However, its that "INITIAL DRIVE" in a RAV4 EV that Toyota is hoping to make their very best first impression on prospective customers.

 

[Sport Mode]

Tony:

Love the chart!

I know on the range meter has 16 bars.

On your chart you show 20 bars for extended charge. Does the range meter change to 20 bars after
doing an extended charge? If so, I had no idea. If not, how does one know that
you did an extended charge?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony:

Love the chart!

I know on the range meter has 16 bars.

On your chart you show 20 bars for extended charge. Does the range meter change to 20 bars after
doing an extended charge? If so, I had no idea. If not, how does one know that
you did an extended charge?

You currently don't know if you have an extended charge. It's a little silly, to be honest. No, there is not four additional bars on the gas gauge, but it should have.

I'll eliminate that from the chart.

Thanks!!!

 

[Dsinned]

Tony, the only thing we don't know for absolute certain, without speculating, is the "actual" full energy storage battery capacity. Although, we have been able to estimate it from the energy it takes to do a full "extended" charge, which as you know turns out to be close to 50kWh. This is reflected at the top of the left hand column in your range chart. Also, we don't know if what appears to be ~8kWh of "extra" (unusable) charge is stored at the top or only at the bottom, or some combination. I suspect the latter. Anyways, thanks for your work on the range chart estimator as it promises to be a very useful reference guide.

A few suggestions . . .

1. Shade the column that corresponds to Toyota's "official" estimated range of 92 miles at 80% charge, and 113 miles at 100% charge, just to give users a sense of how much better (or worse) ranges will or can be depending on "how they drive". This also is the column that correlates to the EPA range estimate on the window sticker.

2. Add in additional rows of range numbers, so there is a 1:1 relationship for each value on the far left hand column. As it is now, interpolation is necessary which should be eliminated.

3. Add a footnote to explain that the the top of the chart reflects the difference between a full extended charge (highest row) vs. a fully standard charge (next to highest row).

4. Add another footnote to explain that after a fully extended charge, the first segment to extinquish on the battery range gauge represents a battery depletion of ~9.8kWh (actually, 7.8kWh of hidden charge + 2.0kWh after 1st segment used up). This corresponds to ~20% of total battery energy depletion from an absolute maximum, 100% SOC (~50kWh), or effectively ~23.4% of USABLE battery capacity (41.8kWh). Obviously, this is a disportionately larger drop/seqment than reflected in all other lower 15 segments. This is because the battery continues to deplete fairly linearly at a rate of ~2kWh (or 6%) per segment to use up the rest of its usable energy. When the last segment extinquishes, there is less than ~2kWh of further (hidden) charge depletion (perhaps only 1 or 2%, or even as little as a couple 100Wh, depending on battery condition) of usable capacity allowed before Turtle mode activates.

This might be too much information, and perhaps too much "guesswork", but I think a better interpretation of the left hand columns on the chart.

 

[Dsinned]

Btw, the way you will know if you last had an extended charge or just a standard charge, is after the charge, before your next drive, be sure to reset the trip odometer. Then, as your driving watch for when the first (top most) segment extinquishes on the battery range gauge. This should happen within 30 +/5 miles (corresponding to ~9.8kWh of battery depletion) after an extended charge, or within about 6 +/-1 miles (or ~2kWh of battery depletion) after a standard charge. These predictions are based on an average driving efficieny of 2.5 to 3.5 miles/kWh. It is important to realize these are merely estimates. However, they relate to my last post, which is based on mathematical predictions, which correlate fairly well to Tony's latest range chart as well.

 

[TonyWilliams]

4. Add another footnote to explain that after a fully extended charge, the first segment to extinquish on the battery range gauge represents ~7.8kWh (actually, 5.8kWh of hidden charge + 2.0kWh after 1st segment used up).

Actually, it is 7.8 + 2.0 until the first fuel bar extinguishes from a 100% charge.

When the last segment extinquishes, there is probably ~2kWh of further (hidden) charge depletion allowed before Turtle mode activates, i.e. (2kWh/seg * 16seg) + 2kWh (hidden charge) = 34kWh.

The chart currently reflects "0-CCL" as that "hidden bar". Also, when CCL comes on, both climate control is limited as is power to the traction motor.

This is 3% SOC (if the battery is 50kWh when new, then this would give 1.5kWh to dead. Obviously, the BMS will limit us to about 2%, which means that CCL is only about 0.5kWh.

Climate control won't return to full power until 6.5% SOC. This is similar on the LEAF, except a far higher SOC (I froze my butt off one night to learn this).

 

[Dsinned]

Actually, it is 7.8 + 2.0 until the first fuel bar extinguishes from a 100% charge.

Thanks for the correction, which I have shown in blue itallics above.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I drove about 350 miles this past weekend, including driving to the first Rav4 EV Gen II gathering of owners in Irvine.

I recorded the following data from Saturday:

I set the cruise control on 75 mph for the 70 mile first leg with 2.6 miles/kWh while gaining 900 feet in elevation. The first fuel bar segment dropped off at 26 miles traveled.

The next leg was 46 miles and driven at 55 mph. At 116.7 miles traveled, only two fuel bar segments (Very Low Battery) remained. With 22 miles to go, I elected to stop at Kohl's for a 45 minute free charge (6.24kW with 208v/30a) with a ChargePoint unit.

This should have provided:

0.75 hours (6.24 * 0.86 charger efficiency) = 4kWh * 3.4 miles/kWh (60mph) = 13.6 miles additional range up to 4kWh * 2.7 miles/kWh (75mph) = 10.8 miles additional mileage.

At the Irvine meeting, with 138.7 miles covered, there were zero fuel bar segments and (Very Low Battery). I charged for three and a half hours at 208v/30a, which should have provided:

3.5 (6.24* 0.86) = 18.8kWh * 3.4 = 63.8 miles to 50.8 miles @ 2.7

That wouldn't quite get me home at 55-60mph, so I stopped for another 30 minutes of charging (2.7kWh @ 2.7 = 7.3 miles or 9.2 miles at 3.4)

211.8 miles traveled total with zero battery fuel bar segments equals good planning. 4.75 hours total charging at 6.24kW. Average calculated economy: 212 miles / (41kWh + 25.5kWh) = 3.2 miles/kWh (economy includes heater use).

Sunday had the following:

GOM = 113/121 in ECO Hi @ 72F
60mph with cruise control engaged (59mph measured by GPS)

Virtually identical garage temperature and conditions as Saturday: 57F in the garage with outside ambient at 50F in fog. Temperature steadily dropped to a low of 38F during the first leg of the trip. Elevation started at 580 feet, and went down to 340 feet, ending at 1475 feet for the outbound leg. Reverse for return except 60F-70F temperatures. 126.5 miles total round trip.

Fuel - Segment - Cumulative
Bar - Miles - Miles/kWh

16 - 29.9 - 2.8
15 - 3.0 - 2.6
14 - 2.8 - 2.5
13 - 1.4 - 2.5
12 - 6.8 - 2.6
11 - 4.0 - 2.5
10 - 6.7 - 2.5
9 - 7.3 - 2.6 (then reset economy, return trip downhill)
8 - 7.4 - 3.1
7 - 5.5 - 3.0
6 - 8.5 - 4.1
5 - less than 1 mile, charge 2 hours at 6.24kW, reset economy

11 - 3.8 - 3.3
10 - 9.5 - 4.0
9 - 5.4 - 3.9
8 - 3.7 - 3.6
7 - 9.9 - 3.9
6 - 3.5 - 3.7
5 - 4.4 - 3.8

 

[Dsinned]

Tony, your drive(s) last weekend makes for a good real world evaluation of what a GoM segment is equivalent to on a typical round trip of a few hundred miles. I came up with "5.64 mi/seg" average for your trip. Thus, from my earlier post to this thread, I suggested that 6 +/1 miles per segment could be used as a rule of thumb, based on a driving efficiency of 2.5 to 3.5mi/kWh. Btw, I extrapolated this figure from your range chart, and based on your real world data, I wasn't very far off.

I added up all your segment miles from segment to segment (18 total) and calculated your average miles per segment, which came out to 5.64. Your trip sounds like mostly freeway driving, so I am not surprised you averaged a little on the "low side", but still within a +/-1 mile variation.

Of course the ubiqutous disclaimer "YMMV" on these type of range discussions certainly applies here as well. :mrgreen:

 

[TonyWilliams]

Your trip sounds like mostly freeway driving, so I am not surprised you average is a little on the "low side", but still within a +/-1 mile variation.

All freeway at the stated speeds.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I drove my Rav4 191 miles today, and now, after several long distance jaunts, I'm getting a good handle on performance. I started at 100%, drove 17 miles, and once again charged to close to 100% in about 45 minutes (9.6kW Clipper Creek, about 6.5kWh).

It was over 80 miles to a meeting, then a few more miles to find a charging station. I charged for 1+14 hours at 6.05kW for a total of 7.4kWh at the Tesla store in Newport Beach (ChargePoint). We ate at the Cheese Cake Factory, and then onward home. Unfortunately, it looked like my awesome plan was going to come up a bit short, so I stopped for 36 minutes at 6.05kW for 3.54kWh (GE WattStation).

The trip was driven at 55-60mph on mostly freeways. No heater in 55F - 60F temperatures and rain. I arrived home a few miles from dead ("LO" range).

41.8 kWh start
5.6 (6.5 added at 86% efficiency)
6.4 (7.4 added)
3.0 (3.5 added)
56.8 total

56.0 estimated burn

2+35 hours/minutes of total charging

191 miles / 56 kWh = 3.4 miles per kWh (294 watts per mile)

305 km / 56 kWh = 5.45 km per kWh (183 watts per km)

 

[Dsinned]

The trip was driven at 55-60mph on mostly freeways. No heater in 55F - 60F temperatures and rain. I arrived home a few miles from dead ("LO" range, "Climate Control Limited").

41.8 kWh start
6.5 added
7.4 added
3.5 added
59.2 total

58.5 estimated burn

2+35 hours/minutes of total charging

191 miles / 58.5 kWh = 3.365 miles per kWh (297 watts per mile)

305 km / 58.5 kWh = 5.214 miles per kWh (192 watts per km)

Tony, pretty good mileage, but I think you meant 5.214 "killometers" per kWh! What was your indicated range before your trip? At an average of 3.365 mi/kWH, your effective extendted charge range would be slightly over 140 miles! Did you do another full extended charge when you got home and if so, what did your GoM say?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony, pretty good mileage, but I think you meant 5.214 "killometers" per kWh! What was your indicated range before your trip? At an average of 3.365 mi/kWH, your effective extendted charge range would be slightly over 140 miles! Did you do another full extended charge when you got home and if so, what did your GoM say?

I fixed that and more. I had not calculated charger efficiency either. I did not do an extended charge today, and it showed 90/100 range in ECO Hi at 55F this morning.

The range before the trip, I didn't look. I did notice after I drove 25 miles, the GOM showed 85 to go, because I specifically was telling my passenger how that 85 miles will really be well over 100 miles of real range (and completely opposite of the LEAF GOM, which might say 100 and do 85).

I added 15kWh usable during the day, and at 3.4 miles/kWh is 51 miles of additional range. So, my real driving range without a charge was 140 miles.

 

[Dsinned]

That is really excellent range and sooo much more than such a crappy EPA (window sticker) rating of only "103" miles. I believe even Toyota has been overly conservative with its extended charge estimate of only 113 miles. Of course, estimates this low (or lower) will occur under unfavorable driving, climate control and OAT conditions. Although, an EPA window sticker of 114 (average of 104 standard charge and 125 extended charge), still conservative, probably would have been much more realistic and accurate to disclose to prospective buyers, and certainly helped sell more of these very fine RAV4 EVs.

 

[TonyWilliams]

After living through the Nissan LEAF "100 mile" BS, I'm quite happy that they are conservative.

One issue has been folks who read the 73MPGe, and assume the car goes 73 miles.

 

[TonyWilliams]

A FULL charge on a Tesla EVSE (you would need a very hard to find adapter, although some now have J1772) or from a NEMA 14-50 plug at an RV park (where they will call it "50 amp service") will provide 50kW in 5 hours if you have a 40 amp EVSE with you. That will provide the 41.8kWh usable power that the battery holds.

The Rav4 will travel 140 miles at 65mph (3.4miles/kWh) on level roads with no cabin or battery heating and take two and one half hours (140 / 60mph average speed = 2.5 hours).

The 40 amp max charge rate will provide 28 miles per hour of charging at 65mph driving speed (5 hours * 28 miles per hour of charging will provide, once again, 140 miles of range).

So, on our perfect flat, dry highway world at 70F or higher ambient, you will drive 2.5 hours and cover 140 miles, then charge 5 hours at the perfectly placed 40 amp charger. Every 7.5 hours, you can cover 140 miles in absolutely perfectly ideal conditions. But, the real world isn't so kind!

In 21.5 hours, your range is 420 miles at 65mph, so lets just say about 400 miles per day MAX.

 

[SeattleRav4]

Since i cannot take delivery in CA, it looks like I will be shipping it to WA.

 

[palmer_md]

Since i cannot take delivery in CA, it looks like I will be shipping it to WA.

You can take delivery but then you'd be required to also pay CA state sales tax at the rate of the dealer location. Better to have it shipped to Oregon border (Ashland/Medford?) and then drive from there if you want to reduce shipping costs.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The Rav4's Tesla charger is 40 amps. Therefore, the "10kW" charger is:

Power -- Voltage -- at 88% efficiency into the battery
11kW ---- 277 ---- 9.7kW (the maximum voltage that the charger can accept)
10kW ---- 250 ---- 8.8kW (hey, it just happened to be 10kW)
9.6kW --- 240 ---- 8.4kW (typical residential power in North America)
9.2kW --- 230 ---- 8.1kW (typical voltage in the rest of the world)
8.3kW --- 208 ---- 7.3kW (typical voltage at a public charge station in North America)
8.0kW --- 200 ---- 7.0kW (typical voltage in Japan)