Cannot charge

[alflash]

The dealership system in the US is generally corrupt. Now that proprietary tools -- beyond legal requirement of the OBDII legislation -- are required to perform diagnostics, and again proprietary equipment to encode/flash/marry new or used replacement parts to work with a vehicle's other systems, this bottleneck/stranglehold has gotten much worse in the past two decades.

Even Tesla participates in this system, requiring USD$100/day for access to online parts/service information, and they only allowed even that because of legislation in Massachusetts.

Twenty years ago, I was very much of the philosophy that, "if you use the software, pay for the software". Times have changed, and bless the hackers that make these proprietary, expensive, or unavailable software tools now available for my personal use. Frankly, I feel better paying a hacker "crook" for a tool to allow me to repair my own vehicle, than paying a corrupt system to do the same.

Alas, yes, unfortunately, so far (?) These and similar rules are not extended to Tesla

Toyota has much more affordable prices https://techinfo.snapon.com/TIS/Register.aspx (NA),
https://www.toyota-tech.eu/DiagnosticTools/Setup (EU).
For comparison, the current prices for access to Tesla information https://service.teslamotors.com/
And it is unclear how an independent technician can get access to it. And is there access to Tool Box soft.


Let me know if You will need diagnostics (remote) of Tesla Systems of yours RAV4EV.

 

[asavage]

I have photos of the charger fuse location and some steps along the way. I will say that it was necessary (and arduous) to completely remove the on-board charger from the Rav4. Then the top cover is removed and several other connections are removed. Finally you are able to remove the charger housing from the base plate. But there are still more screws/connectors to remove the insulation cover over the fuses without damage, and finally test and replace the fuses.

It is no easy task, and now that I know how to do it, it would likely still take 6 to eight hours to complete start to finish. Below is a link to some photos that may be helpful.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kTX7tUQfBnt8aVAZ9

Because Google just sent me a notification of a change to their data retention policy (all your data is wiped if you don't log in for two years, amongst other things), I've saved dstjohn99's pics off to my own storehouse. (Sorry, mobile users; this forum doesn't use a lightbox or similar image resizing tool, though many are available for phpbb, and I'm too lazy to create and link thumbnails)

 

[10basetom]

That "portable" model is not different from the non-portable model, except it has no display. I recommend springing for the one with the display, as even with visible feedback setting up the wi-fi does not always go smoothly IME.

As for the 14-50 to 10-30P adapter, HD's price is pretty high IMO; you might scan some of these alternatives (watch out for the variety of different 10-30P plugs, though).

Thanks for the pointer. I reached out to the OpenEVSE folks and they recommended I get this, so that's what I'm going with:

https://www.evseadapters.com/products/nema-10-30p-to-14-50r-adapter/

You're right, HD is overpriced.

 

[10basetom]

After resetting the charging error code, the car was able to be charged normally again at the dealership. This suggests something is wrong with my EVSE, so I will look to replace it.
...

Questions to my understanding. I understand correctly that you are categorically refused to tell you which code (from the "CHG_ ..." series) was read?
Was "charged normally again at the dealership" with their charger or yours?

External symptom of malfunction (stop charging) simultaneous blinking of both charging mode indicators for 10 seconds (19 times) or do they just go out (off)?

I've asked on multiple occasions what the exact codes were, but the service manager at Tustin Toyota said sorry the only information he can provide is whatever the technician noted down in the invoice (shared in an earlier post). I asked if I could contact the technician directly via email or phone and was shot down immediately. The only times when I've been able to get exact codes is when I brought the car to an independent auto repair shop.

Regarding "charged normally again at the dealership" comment, I'll describe the exact order of events to provide some context:

The car was originally serviced at Tustin Toyota. The first night I got it back, I plugged it in again, and it exhibited the exact same issue as before (it would make that whirling sound as it's preparing to charge like normal, but after about 5s both lights flash 4-6 times and the car stops charging with "charging stopped by system malfunction" error in dashboard). I removed the nozzle and reinserted it a couple times with no luck. Next, I unplugged the EVSE (16amp Duosida) from the NEMA 10-30 outlet and replugged it a minute later; then reinserted the nozzle again, and this time it started charging without issues, all the way to 80%. I thought cool, they really fixed it, then proceeded to drive it down to 20 miles of range. When I tried to charge it, that's why I faced the exact same issue again; however, this time unplugging and replugging the EVSE didn't solve anything. This was when I decided to bring it back to Tustin Toyota. Since I didn't think I had enough range to make it to Tustin, I instead took the car 5 miles down to Irvine Toyota (AutoNation) to try and charge at their charging station. The car had the same issue charging; that's when I decided to have Irvine Toyota diagnose it and tell me exactly what code was tripped, so I left the car there for servicing. When I got home, the service manager called me and said the car is not able to charge likely because of the error code that was tripped when I tried to plug it in at home (same error as shown in photo below). He told me he didn't want to charge me $180 or so to diagnose this, so I should bring it to Tustin since they should be able to re-diagnose & reset it for free. The next day when I came to pick up my car in Irvine, I noticed that error in the dashboard went away. To test out the service manager's theory, I told him to try charging the car again, and sure enough, it was charging normally again. He was nice enough to let me leave the car there one more night so it can charge to 80% again. I picked up the car the next day, and now it's back in my garage, and that's where we are today.

Judgment Day comes when I receive the new EVSE: if it has the same charging issue, then we're back to square one lol. If that happens, I guess I might invest in an OBD scanner to get the codes myself. Can you guys recommend a good, reliable model? I currently have my eyes set on the Innova CarScan Pro Model 5610, which was recently voted "best overall" by Roadshow.

 

[asavage]

I reached out to the OpenEVSE folks and they recommended I get this, so that's what I'm going with:

https://www.evseadapters.com/products/nema-10-30p-to-14-50r-adapter

That's better

You're right, HD is overpriced.

Well, they're convenient and are open at odd hours, so they've got that going for them. I actually special order a lot of stuff through them. Their curbside pickup tends to suck, though; not using that again. Their pickup lockers are convenient, but like a lot of folks I've been doing a lot of DIY home projects and that tends to require bulky things, so lockers . . . not so useful.

 

[davewill]

...
Judgment Day comes when I receive the new EVSE: if it has the same charging issue, then we're back to square one lol. If that happens, I guess I might invest in an OBD scanner to get the codes myself. Can you guys recommend a good, reliable model? I currently have my eyes set on the Innova CarScan Pro Model 5610, which was recently voted "best overall" by Roadshow.

It doesn't have to be the EVSE, it could be your wiring. I'd take a hard look at the outlet and it's connections as well as connections back at the panel. A dodgy connection might act exactly like this. Also, using a 10-30 requires repurposing the neutral as a ground, which is normally not a problem, BUT... if the 10-30 is coming from a subpanel, you can have problems because the neutral isn't bonded to ground until you get back to the main panel, so you can have messy return voltages on the neutral.

If that's the case and you don't need to use this outlet for anything else, you could change it to a 6-30. You'd wrap the neutral with green tape at each end and move it from the neutral bar to the ground bar at the panel.

 

[alflash]

Please clarify. Before stopping HV charging, are the side indicators flashing (19 times and 10 seconds) or do they just go out?
Was there any diagnostics (at least reading the codes) of Tesla systems?
For example,

Notes.
OBD2 scanner will only be able to show fault codes that are recorded in Toyota systems.
If there is a Check EV System message, then Toyota will have the P312F code*, which records only the presence of a malfunction in Tesla's systems (which Toyota refers to as Electric Propulsion Control System).
For diagnostics** of Teslas DTC, Live Data, etc. this software need used

To determine the cause of the charging malfunction, it is imperative to read (know) which malfunction codes are recorded in the Tesla system, since the codes received from the Toyota system in this case are not very informative (with rare exceptions).

*

**
If need we can do your car remote diagnostic of RAV4EV Teslas systems.

 

[miimura]

Judgment Day comes when I receive the new EVSE: if it has the same charging issue, then we're back to square one lol. If that happens, I guess I might invest in an OBD scanner to get the codes myself. Can you guys recommend a good, reliable model? I currently have my eyes set on the Innova CarScan Pro Model 5610, which was recently voted "best overall" by Roadshow.

Don't waste your money on a third party OBD scanner for the EV. It is not too expensive to get a OBD computer interface for Toyota Techstream. That will show everything on the Toyota side of the car and is the only useful thing you can easily buy. However, as @alflash showed, most of the useful stuff is only available in the restricted Tesla Powertrain Diagnostics program that communicates on the rear DLC connector.

 

[10basetom]

Thank you, @davewill, @alflash, and @miimura -- very useful information!

Before stopping HV charging, are the side indicators flashing (19 times and 10 seconds) or do they just go out?

The side indicators just turned off after both were flashing 3-5 seconds; they definitely did not flash 19 times / 10 seconds.

CORRECTION: I just plugged in the Duosida EVSE and counted the number of blinks before charging shut down -- it DID flash 19 times, so the statement above is incorrect.

It doesn't have to be the EVSE, it could be your wiring. I'd take a hard look at the outlet and it's connections as well as connections back at the panel. A dodgy connection might act exactly like this. Also, using a 10-30 requires repurposing the neutral as a ground, which is normally not a problem, BUT... if the 10-30 is coming from a subpanel, you can have problems because the neutral isn't bonded to ground until you get back to the main panel, so you can have messy return voltages on the neutral.

If that's the case and you don't need to use this outlet for anything else, you could change it to a 6-30. You'd wrap the neutral with green tape at each end and move it from the neutral bar to the ground bar at the panel.

Now that you mentioned this, I just recalled that this charging issue started happening not soon after I suffered two rolling blackouts because of the recent California brush fires. In both cases the Duosida EVSE was plugged into the outlet (but not charging); before this I have had no issues charging the car for almost a year. I think it's probably a good idea to have a certified electrician inspect this to be safe. Regarding the grounding, I wasn't aware that was a potential issue since I was able to use the Duosida EVSE with no issues before by plugging it directly into the 10-30. While looking at the 10-30 to 14-50 adapter, I came across this little nugget:

"It’s a common misconception that 10-30 outlets aren’t grounded. Actually they are grounded, but not in the typical way. Since the 10-30 outlets only have three conductors, the ground and neutral are shared, and both are present on the outlet’s L-shaped slot. Our EV adapter has been designed to route the ground connection from the 10-30 outlet while leaving the neutral alone. This way you still get a safe grounded connection. The neutral is not used by EV chargers – it’s only used for 120 volt applications such as the timer on an electric dryer. So no additional grounding is necessary as that has been taken care of in the design of the adapter. All you need to do is plug it in and set your charging current to 24 amps."

(Source: https://www.evseadapters.com/products/nema-10-30p-to-14-50r-adapter/)

To my understanding, this means I should be able to plug this adapter into the 10-30 outlet and then plug the OpenEVSE into the adapter (and finally set amp draw to 24A since my 1979 house only has a 30A circuit breaker).

 

[alflash]

Thank you, @davewill, @alflash, and @miimura -- very useful information!

Before stopping HV charging, are the side indicators flashing (19 times and 10 seconds) or do they just go out?

The side indicators just turned off after both were flashing 3-5 seconds; they definitely did not flash 19 times / 10 seconds.

CORRECTION: I just plugged in the Duosida EVSE and counted the number of blinks before charging shut down -- it DID flash 19 times, so the statement above is incorrect.
...

1.As I understand it, now in your case Opion 1, not 2.
https://youtu.be/t29AjsbwXgo
This is worse.

Is the correction of your message caused by a change in the "behavior" of the indicators due to a change in the type of charger, or is it the same, but only the indicators flash differently?
If this change is only due to the use of another device,, then compare the behavior of the indicators using one (first) and using a other (second).

In Ukraine, dozens of RAV4EVs are charged with such a device

from sockets without grounding and do not get any inconvenience.
Of course, I do not urge you to follow this example.

 

[davewill]

While looking at the 10-30 to 14-50 adapter, I came across this little nugget:

"It’s a common misconception that 10-30 outlets aren’t grounded. Actually they are grounded, but not in the typical way. Since the 10-30 outlets only have three conductors, the ground and neutral are shared, and both are present on the outlet’s L-shaped slot. ...

That explanation is a bit simplistic. The 10-30 has two hots and one neutral. If the neutral is being used as a neutral by the appliance, then it can't be a ground as it will have some return voltage on it. Now, if the outlet is wired directly from the main panel, that neutral is connected directly to ground, and using it as a ground (rather than a neutral) is perfectly fine. It's never possible to use it as neutral AND a ground at the same time. However, if the outlet is wired from a subpanel, the neutral is connected to all the other neutrals in that subpanel, and isn't connected to ground until to get back to the main panel meaning it shouldn't be used a ground.. That doesn't mean you wouldn't get away with using it as a ground...until some other load on that subpanel causes a problem.

Even more likely would simply be a marginal connection somewhere that causes either a voltage drop under load or a ground fault that the car doesn't like.

 

[10basetom]

As I understand it, now in your case Opion 1, not 2.
https://youtu.be/t29AjsbwXgo
This is worse.

It is option 1 :-(.

Is the correction of your message caused by a change in the "behavior" of the indicators due to a change in the type of charger, or is it the same, but only the indicators flash differently?

The correction is caused by my faulty memory. I didn't want to rely on my memory of what happened, so that's why I stood next to it and counted the number of flashes. Sure enough, it was exactly 19. This is not a good sign then? Now I'm not sure what to do, but I'll hold off on ordering the OpenEVSE. I have too many open questions with no answers right now...

1. How/why did the Tesla error code reset itself when I left my car at Irvine Toyota overnight?
2. Once this code was reset, how come the car was able to be charged at Irvine Toyota but not by my Duosida EVSE that used to work fine before?
3. What is the exact code(s) that is triggered?

Right now I think my next move will be to hire an electrician to inspect my 10-30 socket. @davewill, is there anything I should ask them to do to maximize the chances of fixing the charging issue? The worst scenario is if I need to replace the entire $3500 charging assembly, but the fact that the car was charging fine at Irvine Toyota (once Tesla error code resetted itself overnight) gives me hope that the root cause is not with the charging assembly.

 

[alflash]

... The correction is caused by my faulty memory. I didn't want to rely on my memory of what happened, so that's why I stood next to it and counted the number of flashes. Sure enough, it was exactly 19. This is not a good sign then? Now I'm not sure what to do, but I'll hold off on ordering the OpenEVSE. I have too many open questions with no answers right now...

1. How/why did the Tesla error code reset itself when I left my car at Irvine Toyota overnight?
2. Once this code was reset, how come the car was able to be charged at Irvine Toyota but not by my Duosida EVSE that used to work fine before?
3. What is the exact code(s) that is triggered?

1. Unfortunately, Tesla's engineers did not use the customary rule to store fault codes in non-volatile memory. Therefore, after turning off the ignition, and then turning it on, the system does not know about previous faults.

2. In my practice of remote diagnostics, there have been cases when in one car different results of an attempt at explosive charging from different external charges.
For example, the results of one car, but when using two different charges:

3. Failure / breakdown of the charging explosive can be for various reasons/causes and, accordingly, there may be different fault codes.

... Right now I think my next move will be to hire an electrician to inspect my 10-30 socket. @davewill, is there anything I should ask them to do to maximize the chances of fixing the charging issue? The worst scenario is if I need to replace the entire $3500 charging assembly, but the fact that the car was charging fine at Irvine Toyota (once Tesla error code resetted itself overnight) gives me hope that the root cause is not with the charging assembly.

No comment, since the parameters of the battery charging system are unknown when it is NG and when OK. Therefore, there is no definitive diagnosis.
But now all versions cannot be ruled out fnd any version is eligible for consideration.

Judging by the description, the versions of the malfunction of your external charger or its supply voltage is quite probable. It would be nice to check for the presence of a pilot signal (code CHG_u005), cable serviceability (code CHG_u007), and so on.
But since they charged your car normally, the Charger Assembly malfunction is still unlikely.

 

[10basetom]

Thanks for your input, @alflash. One more data point: when I plugged my EVSE into the 10-30, the digital volt gauge jumped around various numbers between 230 and 275 volts -- is this normal? I'm wondering if I can find some kind of volt regulator that would output a constant number of volts that would make the Rav4 happy.

Today I will bring my car to a friend's house to charge (he has a Tesla EVSE setup).

 

[alflash]

Thanks for your input, @alflash. One more data point: when I plugged my EVSE into the 10-30, the digital volt gauge jumped around various numbers between 230 and 275 volts -- is this normal? I'm wondering if I can find some kind of volt regulator that would output a constant number of volts that would make the Rav4 happy.

Today I will bring my car to a friend's house to charge (he has a Tesla EVSE setup).

Ok.
Are there such power surges in your home network ??? I do not envy your other AC powered devices...
Where did you connect the AC voltmeter? Maybe you take a video?
Yes, that's right, you need to check the charging process from another external charger and from another AC network.
And if you have your own autonomous one, then check it there (from a friend).
If there will are problems, try to repeat the charging process after several switching on / off the ignition.

It is a pity that during this check we will not be able to observe the parameters of Tesla systems

 

[10basetom]

Thanks for your input, @alflash. One more data point: when I plugged my EVSE into the 10-30, the digital volt gauge jumped around various numbers between 230 and 275 volts -- is this normal? I'm wondering if I can find some kind of volt regulator that would output a constant number of volts that would make the Rav4 happy.

Today I will bring my car to a friend's house to charge (he has a Tesla EVSE setup).

Ok.
Are there such power surges in your home network ??? I do not envy your other AC powered devices...
Where did you connect the AC voltmeter? Maybe you take a video?
Yes, that's right, you need to check the charging process from another external charger and from another AC network.
And if you have your own autonomous one, then check it there (from a friend).
If there will are problems, try to repeat the charging process after several switching on / off the ignition.

It is a pity that during this check we will not be able to observe the parameters of Tesla systems

After a lot of trial and error, my friend and I finally discovered a solution to the charging issue that so far is 100% reliable. I will describe it below in case anyone else suffers from the 19-flash charging issue and need to charge their car in a pinch without having to take the car to a repair shop. Note that although this is a solution to the problem, it is NOT a fix of the root cause since we still don't know the root cause without access to the Tesla error codes. Since I only need to charge my car about once every other week, this solution is acceptable for me, as it takes me less than 30 seconds total to pop the hood and turn the knob to enable charging every time the issue surfaces again.

Here is how to get the car to charge again if you experience the charging issue discussed in this thread:

1. Install a 12V battery disconnect on the negative post. I picked this up for $7 today and it took about 15 minutes to install:

(Source: https://www.autozone.com/batteries-starting-and-charging/battery-terminal/duralast-brass-swan-battery-terminal/620001_0_0)

2. Turn the green knob counter-clockwise to disconnect the 12V battery, wait 10 seconds or so, and turn it the other way to connect the battery again.

After this, you will be able to charge your car again. I don't know why this works, but it works. YMMV -- even though it has worked for me, it may not work in your case, so verify that the battery disconnect/reconnect trick works before investing in the battery disconnect component in step 1 (though IMHO this is still a nice thing to install to quickly do the "Tony test" to reset the range meter). Here are some observations:

- If you follow the two steps above, but instead of charging immediately, you turn on the engine and shift the gear to Drive, the charging issue rears its ugly head again. It seems shifting into "D" causes the software to enter a state that introduces this charging issue. Inversely, disconnecting the 12V battery resets the computer to a state where you are able to charge again.

- In my case, the "Check EV System - Have Your Vehicle Checked by a Dealership Immediately" error stays in memory even after turning off the engine, disconnecting the 12V battery, and reconnecting the battery. However, so far this error has been going away after driving a few minutes.

- We didn't have the necessary adapter, so I wasn't able to plug into my friend's 14-50 outlet. We tried the only thing we could, which was to plug the stock Toyota 120V EVSE into his house. This resulted in the same charging issue (19 flashes). This suggests that the issue is in software/firmware and not faulty wiring in my home. I don't think the issue is with the cables either because what are the chances that both the 120V Toyota cable and the 240V Duosida cable malfunctions at the same time, and the Toyota EVSE has been in storage ever since I bought the Duosida a year ago. After the 120V failed to charge is when my friend had the idea to disconnect the 12V; when we reconnected the 12V we were able to charge using the 120V outlet, so we know that EVSE is fine. When we got back to my house and tried disconnecting/reconnecting the 12V battery, we were able to charge again using the 240V Duosida EVSE, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that either.

In any case, even though I still don't know the exact cause of this charging "bug", I'm satisfied with the current solution.

 

[10basetom]

Where did you connect the AC voltmeter?

The EVSE has a little display that shows the voltage.

 

[asavage]

It is a pity that during this check we will not be able to observe the parameters of Tesla systems

- In my case, the "Check EV System - Have Your Vehicle Checked by a Dealership Immediately" error stays in memory even after turning off the engine, disconnecting the 12V battery, and reconnecting the battery.

The Toyota ECU remembers the MIL, but alflash says the Tesla ECU doesn't. That's an unusual bit of engineering, if true.

 

[alflash]

... After a lot of trial and error, my friend and I finally discovered a solution to the charging issue that so far is 100% reliable. I will describe it below in case anyone else suffers from the 19-flash charging issue and need to charge their car in a pinch without having to take the car to a repair shop. Note that although this is a solution to the problem, it is NOT a fix of the root cause since we still don't know the root cause without access to the Tesla error codes. Since I only need to charge my car about once every other week, this solution is acceptable for me, as it takes me less than 30 seconds total to pop the hood and turn the knob to enable charging every time the issue surfaces again.

Here is how to get the car to charge again if you experience the charging issue discussed in this thread:

1. Install a 12V battery disconnect on the negative post. I picked this up for $7 today and it took about 15 minutes to install:

...

2. Turn the green knob counter-clockwise to disconnect the 12V battery, wait 10 seconds or so, and turn it the other way to connect the battery again.

After this, you will be able to charge your car again. I don't know why this works, but it works. YMMV -- even though it has worked for me, it may not work in your case, so verify that the battery disconnect/reconnect trick works before investing in the battery disconnect component in step 1 (though IMHO this is still a nice thing to install to quickly do the "Tony test" to reset the range meter). Here are some observations:

- If you follow the two steps above, but instead of charging immediately, you turn on the engine and shift the gear to Drive, the charging issue rears its ugly head again. It seems shifting into "D" causes the software to enter a state that introduces this charging issue. Inversely, disconnecting the 12V battery resets the computer to a state where you are able to charge again.

- In my case, the "Check EV System - Have Your Vehicle Checked by a Dealership Immediately" error stays in memory even after turning off the engine, disconnecting the 12V battery, and reconnecting the battery. However, so far this error has been going away after driving a few minutes.

- We didn't have the necessary adapter, so I wasn't able to plug into my friend's 14-50 outlet. We tried the only thing we could, which was to plug the stock Toyota 120V EVSE into his house. This resulted in the same charging issue (19 flashes). This suggests that the issue is in software/firmware and not faulty wiring in my home. I don't think the issue is with the cables either because what are the chances that both the 120V Toyota cable and the 240V Duosida cable malfunctions at the same time, and the Toyota EVSE has been in storage ever since I bought the Duosida a year ago. After the 120V failed to charge is when my friend had the idea to disconnect the 12V; when we reconnected the 12V we were able to charge using the 120V outlet, so we know that EVSE is fine. When we got back to my house and tried disconnecting/reconnecting the 12V battery, we were able to charge again using the 240V Duosida EVSE, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that either.

In any case, even though I still don't know the exact cause of this charging "bug", I'm satisfied with the current solution.

Thanks fot Information.
Explanations ("a posteriori" and after your feedback) of such a bypass mechanism (fixing the consequences) will come later.
In the meantime, please check the results of several charging (in yours house) only with the use of stock (native) Toyota charging.

 

[alflash]

It is a pity that during this check we will not be able to observe the parameters of Tesla systems

- In my case, the "Check EV System - Have Your Vehicle Checked by a Dealership Immediately" error stays in memory even after turning off the engine, disconnecting the 12V battery, and reconnecting the battery.

The Toyota ECU remembers the MIL, but alflash says the Tesla ECU doesn't. That's an unusual bit of engineering, if true.

I have repeatedly observed a situation when, in the absence of codes (at the moment) in the Tesla system , malfunction code (P312F) remains in the Toyota system. As you know, this code is only a sign of a malfunction in Tesla systems, and it can be erased (and deleted a Check EV System message) by for example, disconnecting the 12 V battery. Those, it this code can also exist in the absence * at the present time of codes in Tesla.

* Most Tesla codes are erased by themselves after fixing the malfunction.

Notes.
Some Tesla codes can only be detected when the corresponding systems are activated / enabled (for example, Inverter, Charger). Unfortunately, for many of the malfunctions of Tesla systems, there are no fault codes
Only contactors malfunction code can be (constantly) stored in memory and can be clear (after fix) only with scantool soft.
It should be remembered that Check EV System message can be caused by other malfunctions (codes) in Toyota systems. For example, screenshot

or photo just taken on another car