Buying a Hybrid; Volt, Plug-In Prius, etc

[danhsu]

I'm planning to get a RAV EV soon, going to test drive today... seeing this post make me consider a Accord Hybrid maybe, never owned a hybrid or EV.. I'm doubtful about its reliability..

Test-drove a Prius, that was the loudest car I've driven so far... even more than a third world Chevvy Corsa..

Anyway, thanks for posting your problems with the car charging.

 

[Blastphemy]

danhsu - your best bet for a "gateway drug" hybrid/electric car is the Chevrolet Volt. There's no range anxiety due to the gas engine that kicks in after ~38 miles, and the car is very quiet until you hit unusually rough pavement at freeway speeds. It has better fit & finish than Honda (or Toyota), and the car can be serviced nationwide (unlike the Rav4 EV, which is intended as a California-only vehicle). If you're close to Southern California, stop in either Keyes Chevrolet or Northridge Chevrolet for two of the best Volt dealers. Leases on a fully-loaded 2014 Volt can be as low as $325/mo. If you buy fully-loaded, it'll be $40k + $3,600 sales tax + ~$1,500 document/misc fees - dealer incentives (anywhere from $1,000 to $4,500) - GM Card discount (if you have one) -$1,500 CA rebate (after the fact) - a potential $7,500 tax credit (when you file next year).

Chevrolet is currently offering 0% for 48 months on a purchase, and I got a quote over the weekend for $817.50/mo on a fully-loaded 2014 Volt. The lease offer was below $450/mo, but I don't remember the actual number nor the number of months & mileage.

My wife loves her Rav4 EV (dumb charging issues and problematic user interface aside), but she only got it as a placeholder until the Tesla Model X arrives.

 

[Dsinned]

I would also like to suggest the Chevy Volt as well. I've had my 2012 Volt for ~18 months and it has been absolutely FLAWLESS. No problems at all and real pleasure to commute to work in everyday. The electric range has been much better than advertised. I typically get about 44 miles on a full charge. The car is indeed VERY quite, even driven on extended range mode with the gas powered generator online. According to my center console display, I am getting 229 mpg after ~7000 miles on the road! I applied for and received a total of $9000 in Federal/CA government incentives and paid only $8 for my CA HOV stickers (which saves tons of time while commuting during rush hours every day). Unlike the RAV4 EV with all its "quirky" Toyota/Tesla issues, the Volt is truly a very well engineering and reliable design and has nearly as much straight line performance to boot!!!

 

[danhsu]

I totally neglected the Volt, maybe because my head was the 1st gen range that was too low... now the new one seems nice. Thanks for both heads up... and I really liked the fact you can fold 2nd seat, also the infotainment seems much updated. I was considering the Rav4 because I might use it for company light delivery... and other hybrids were non-foldable the 2nd row.

I will get more info now..

But, now comes another thing... bmw i3 is just there also, and with the range extender... would be a close price range with the Volt... just didn't like the doors and the fact is too "small" as my friends quoted after checking it at LA Auto Show... Dealers are rolling test drive on saturday.. I might check it... what are your thoughts?

 

[Dsinned]

FWIW, the Volt's rear passenger seats (2) will fold down as well, just not quite perfectly flat. My 2012 is rated at 35 miles electric. The 2013/14 went up to 38 miles due to a minor tweak to the battery chemistry. Depending on how you drive it, especially if you practice "hypermiling", the electric range will be closer to 40 to 50 miles, and full recharge takes less than 4 hours on a typical L2 EVSE.

 

[jspearman]

Volt is good, solid car, like a big block of lead with wheels. Drives like an '85 Lincoln and survives a crash like one, too (acquaintance of mine was t-boned on driver's side at 45 mph and walked away unscathed). After 12k miles, I finally realized that I actually like mine, and due to the lack of drama, I might even lease another. Leaf: lots of drama. RAV4: Toyota only interested in Prius and pie-in-sky fuel cells. Even with AC cranked up, I still get 36 miles of range, and with good weather I easily get 46. Not sexy, not fast, but I only put gas in it for long trips.

 

[danhsu]

Thank you guys for sharing information in no time. Watched some youtube videos and I really like the flexibility in how the system can work, with the gas motor charging the battery or as a hybrid... that's some awesome feature that they should have advertised this more.

 

[danhsu]

gonna test drive this weekend the Volt, any heads up on possible problems with the car? I tried to research it but there is not much information out there... Are you guys planning to buy it after lease? Any problems with loss of capacity of the battery?

I think the major concern despite of car maker, is the battery loss of capacity which is a nature of the batteries in general... and it's a costly one.. to compare it with gas.. well gas doesn't break or has loss of capacity on the same terms as battery, although it might make you broke depending on the car you have.

Really wanted to jump in to the EV wave for economical reasons.. I am still considering Rav4 EV just because I saw some people still using their 2002 EV.. that is amazing.

 

[danhsu]

just checked GM official website for Volt Owners, geez.. saw a lot of "possible" problems.. is that normal?

http://gm-volt.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?27-Problems-Issues-Driver-Warnings-or-DTCs-Chevy-Volt&sort=lastpost&order=desc

 

[user 340]

That is a good website (I'm a forum member!), but I don't think that it is related to GM.

GM has sold about 50,000 Volts. Toyota has sold about 1000 RAV4 EVs (2nd gen). No car is perfect, so it is not too surprising to see some people having problems with Volts given that so many have been sold.

I have had my Volt over a year. Zero problems. 3 good friends of mine have Volts. Zero problems there. The Volt is incredibly well engineered and has zero drama. When I plug it in I know that it will charge when my electric rates are lowest and it will be ready by the time I need it. Switching between gas and electric mode is seamless whether you let the car do it automatically or if you do it manually. It is a very well finished and well engineered machine - it puts the RAV4 EV to shame in this regard. So much so that a lot of people think it is boring - because it just works without drama.

GM takes Volt service seriously. There are special Volt advisors to answer your questions and tell you about any updates for your car. GM has total ownership of the Volt, unlike the gulf between Toyota and Tesla when thorny problems arise. There are dealerships that sell and service Volts all across the country - imagine that!

Do I love my Volt? YES! Would I trade my RAV for another Volt? No... the RAV is much more temperamental and not nearly as well finished, but it has this je ne sais quoi about it that I find appealing - until it gives me my first Check EV System Error.

 

[bruin nut]

That is a good website (I'm a forum member!), but I don't think that it is related to GM.

GM has sold about 50,000 Volts. Toyota has sold about 1000 RAV4 EVs (2nd gen). No car is perfect, so it is not too surprising to see some people having problems with Volts given that so many have been sold.

I have had my Volt over a year. Zero problems. 3 good friends of mine have Volts. Zero problems there. The Volt is incredibly well engineered and has zero drama. When I plug it in I know that it will charge when my electric rates are lowest and it will be ready by the time I need it. Switching between gas and electric mode is seamless whether you let the car do it automatically or if you do it manually. It is a very well finished and well engineered machine - it puts the RAV4 EV to shame in this regard. So much so that a lot of people think it is boring - because it just works without drama.

GM takes Volt service seriously. There are special Volt advisors to answer your questions and tell you about any updates for your car. GM has total ownership of the Volt, unlike the gulf between Toyota and Tesla when thorny problems arise. There are dealerships that sell and service Volts all across the country - imagine that!

Do I love my Volt? YES! Would I trade my RAV for another Volt? No... the RAV is much more temperamental and not nearly as well finished, but it has this je ne sais quoi about it that I find appealing - until it gives me my first Check EV System Error.

I agree with tgreene. The Volt is really a great car. I had mine for two years before switching over to the RAV4 EV about 4 months ago. Am I happy I made the switch? Absolutely and without reservation. Are there things that I like better about the Volt than the RAV? Same answer.

I have had no problems with my RAV, and I hopefully never will. The dealer I bought it from (Carson Toyota) is close by and is probably the best in California. The RAV drives great, has incredible power, amazing range, great charging speed, and very good electronics. But the Volt is more refined, has a much better user interface and electronics, drives smoother, can be driven any length, and is supported by Chevy with all its might. I do miss my Volt, and would have kept it if the battery capacity gave it Leaf-like range with an ICE for backup.

 

[srl99]

I know 3 people who lease Volts. They all really like the car (and I liked it for the short time I drove it to and from the charging station - like a brick on rollers as someone else described). Apparently, the original run flat tires were somewhat weak at least two of these people have had to buy more than one new tire for their car. One complained about the bluetooth integration between pandora and voice calls. I take that as a strong sign of reliability.

Apparently, GM changed or is changing the OEM tire. The bluetooth issue has been fixed by a firmware upgrade. The original EVSEs were junk and have been replaced.

 

[danhsu]

Thank you guys for the info. I will test drive it with your comments in mind, my major concern for electrics in general is the battery loss.. seems like the solution for that would be to NOT purchase the car after the lease is off, unless there is a market difference to have a gain.. which I suspect the Rav4 EV will have more value added, if you can say that? I mean after 3 years the car residual is 20k, which I don't think the preowned on the market will be around this value.. since we are not seeing any EV SUV on the next 3 years, besides Super Tesla X, and the fact that Toyota will produce "only" 2600 units between 2012-2015, and by some calculations someone did at this Forum, would be all should by June this year.

What are your thoughts since you guys had more experience on this EV wave

 

[miimura]

...since we are not seeing any EV SUV on the next 3 years, besides Super Tesla X

I'm not sure when we will see ANY other car with more EPA all-electric range than the RAV for under $40,000. That's the main reason I bought this car. I purchased it with $10,000 off from Toyota last April. So, I'm in it for the "long haul". In my life, I've never sold a car that was less than 8 years old . I've given one to a family member after 5 years, but never sold one.

 

[cwerdna]

I'm planning to get a RAV EV soon, going to test drive today... seeing this post make me consider a Accord Hybrid maybe, never owned a hybrid or EV.. I'm doubtful about its reliability..

Test-drove a Prius, that was the loudest car I've driven so far... even more than a third world Chevvy Corsa..

FWIW, I've owned a Prius since January 06 and it's been reasonably reliable. Overall, the non-plugin Prius and Toyota hybrids have very good reliability, as evidenced year after year in Consumer Reports reliability ratings. It also does well in JD Power's VDS (examples below). But... it sounds like you don't like it.

http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/dependability-press-release.htm
http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2012008
http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2011029
http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2010034
and so on.

It seems like virtually everyone I know of w/the Volt is happy with it (and I am NOT a GM fan).

jspearman posted this comparo awhile ago: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3281&p=267884&hilit=submarine#p267884.

Personally, I would be pretty concerned about the reliability of the Rav4 EV. Signs don't look very good (and I am somewhat of a fan of both Toyota and Nissan). Better have a backup car or hope you can get a loaner each time it's in the shop. Unreliable Toyotas are unusual and the Rav4 EV seems to be in the unusual camp, right now w/mostly Tesla bits to blame, it seems.

As for Honda hybrids, I wouldn't buy one. They couldn't even get their NiMH based hybrids right after selling them for ages (http://priuschat.com/threads/salvage-traction-battery.89071/#post-1252078 re: weaknesses). They started selling the Gen 1 Insight back in December 1999, beating the Prius to the US market. (Prius had been selling in Japan since late 97 though.) Now, Honda's been going li-ion but we have w/no long-term track of them w/li-ion. Maybe if you leased a HAH or plug-in HAH, that might be ok.

 

[danhsu]

...since we are not seeing any EV SUV on the next 3 years, besides Super Tesla X

I'm not sure when we will see ANY other car with more EPA all-electric range than the RAV for under $40,000. That's the main reason I bought this car. I purchased it with $10,000 off from Toyota last April. So, I'm in it for the "long haul". In my life, I've never sold a car that was less than 8 years old . I've given one to a family member after 5 years, but never sold one.

good point and argument. I'm between the RAV4 EV and Volt for now. Haven't had the time to test drive both.

 

[danhsu]

I'm planning to get a RAV EV soon, going to test drive today... seeing this post make me consider a Accord Hybrid maybe, never owned a hybrid or EV.. I'm doubtful about its reliability..

Test-drove a Prius, that was the loudest car I've driven so far... even more than a third world Chevvy Corsa..

FWIW, I've owned a Prius since January 06 and it's been reasonably reliable. Overall, the non-plugin Prius and Toyota hybrids have very good reliability, as evidenced year after year in Consumer Reports reliability ratings. It also does well in JD Power's VDS (examples below). But... it sounds like you don't like it.

http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/dependability-press-release.htm
http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2012008
http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2011029
http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2010034
and so on.

It seems like virtually everyone I know of w/the Volt is happy with it (and I am NOT a GM fan).

jspearman posted this comparo awhile ago: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3281&p=267884&hilit=submarine#p267884.

Personally, I would be pretty concerned about the reliability of the Rav4 EV. Signs don't look very good (and I am somewhat of a fan of both Toyota and Nissan). Better have a backup car or hope you can get a loaner each time it's in the shop. Unreliable Toyotas are unusual and the Rav4 EV seems to be in the unusual camp, right now w/mostly Tesla bits to blame, it seems.

As for Honda hybrids, I wouldn't buy one. They couldn't even get their NiMH based hybrids right after selling them for ages (http://priuschat.com/threads/salvage-traction-battery.89071/#post-1252078 re: weaknesses). They started selling the Gen 1 Insight back in December 1999, beating the Prius to the US market. (Prius had been selling in Japan since late 97 though.) Now, Honda's been going li-ion but we have w/no long-term track of them w/li-ion. Maybe if you leased a HAH or plug-in HAH, that might be ok.

Yeah the Prius didn't motivated me after first test drive. It was the first hybrid I've driven. Thanks for your opinion as regard to other EV's available, I'm not sure if I will go with RAV4 EV or Volt. Even though I'm married and we have 2 cars, not sure if I can consider wife's car as a backup haha.

Anyway, at this moment I am more inclined to get the Volt, since I was offered by email without even going to check the car a $299 month, 0 down, 0 drive off... 15k miles lease.. which I thought was really attractive, just not sure if it's the 35k or full packed 40k model. Does anyone had any other "extra" expense wit the Volt during the 2,3 years leasing? I mean, does it come with Full Service paid? Are the part expensive?

As for the Rav4 EV, despite the possible technical problems... it's a $200 extra on monthly leasing.. that weights a lot on the decision right now. Although I am not huge fan of chevrolet, my 2 first cars were chevrolet, and I enjoyed pretty much.

Thanks
Daniel

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Some more data points on Priuses. Besides their good reliability ratings, http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Lifespan/Operating_costs has some examples of long-lived/high mileage Priuses.

 

[cossie1600]

The RAV4 is like twice the size of the Leaf, bigger than the Prius and the Volt.

 

[mark_rivers19]

I'm planning to get a RAV EV soon, going to test drive today... seeing this post make me consider a Accord Hybrid maybe, never owned a hybrid or EV.. I'm doubtful about its reliability..

Test-drove a Prius, that was the loudest car I've driven so far... even more than a third world Chevvy Corsa..

FWIW, I've owned a Prius since January 06 and it's been reasonably reliable. Overall, the non-plugin Prius and Toyota hybrids have very good reliability, as evidenced year after year in Consumer Reports reliability ratings. It also does well in JD Power's VDS (examples below). But... it sounds like you don't like it.

http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/dependability-press-release.htm
http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2012008
http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2011029
http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/news/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2010034
and so on.

It seems like virtually everyone I know of w/the Volt is happy with it (and I am NOT a GM fan).

jspearman posted this comparo awhile ago: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3281&p=267884&hilit=submarine#p267884.

Personally, I would be pretty concerned about the reliability of the Rav4 EV. Signs don't look very good (and I am somewhat of a fan of both Toyota and Nissan). Better have a backup car or hope you can get a loaner each time it's in the shop. Unreliable Toyotas are unusual and the Rav4 EV seems to be in the unusual camp, right now w/mostly Tesla bits to blame, it seems.

As for Honda hybrids, I wouldn't buy one. They couldn't even get their NiMH based hybrids right after selling them for ages (http://priuschat.com/threads/salvage-traction-battery.89071/#post-1252078 re: weaknesses). They started selling the Gen 1 Insight back in December 1999, beating the Prius to the US market. (Prius had been selling in Japan since late 97 though.) Now, Honda's been going li-ion but we have w/no long-term track of them w/li-ion. Maybe if you leased a HAH or plug-in HAH, that might be ok.

Yeah the Prius didn't motivated me after first test drive. It was the first hybrid I've driven. Thanks for your opinion as regard to other EV's available, I'm not sure if I will go with RAV4 EV or Volt. Even though I'm married and we have 2 cars, not sure if I can consider wife's car as a backup haha.

Anyway, at this moment I am more inclined to get the Volt, since I was offered by email without even going to check the car a $299 month, 0 down, 0 drive off... 15k miles lease.. which I thought was really attractive, just not sure if it's the 35k or full packed 40k model. Does anyone had any other "extra" expense wit the Volt during the 2,3 years leasing? I mean, does it come with Full Service paid? Are the part expensive?

As for the Rav4 EV, despite the possible technical problems... it's a $200 extra on monthly leasing.. that weights a lot on the decision right now. Although I am not huge fan of chevrolet, my 2 first cars were chevrolet, and I enjoyed pretty much.

Thanks
Daniel

These flyers/ email offers don't mean anything.
they just want you to be "at the dealer" to sell you a car.
good luck with your hybrid hunt