ALL POSTS - motor whine or "HUM" (Milling Sound)
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TonyWilliams
Well-known member
smkettner said:
There have been serial replacements... I know of Model S cars with three motors.
My 1134 is working on a future number 3.
Motor two in at 11,500 miles
Car currently has 50,000 miles
Kohler Controller
Well-known member
TonyWilliams said:
That is not a good sign. That means they don't know what the core problem is (or can't prevent it). The other problem is it seems they have no buffer stock, rather having to wait for a previously failed unit to be refurbished before swapping out with a newly diagnosed bad one. If I were cynical, I would say their diagnostic procedure of whether something was "in tolerance" or not might be influenced by their current inventory of work in progress (WIP).
cwerdna
Well-known member
To support what Tony mentioned, at least w/Model S.smkettner said:
Edmunds had their drive unit on their Model S replaced 3 times within 17 months and 30K miles. See http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html under Maintenance & Repairs.
1st replacement for noise: http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-tesla-model-s-ominous-noise.html and http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-tesla-model-s-ominous-noise-fixed.html
2nd replacement for car dying while accelerating (http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-tesla-model-s-stuck-on-the-freeway.html): http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-tesla-model-s-is-the-third-drive-unit-the-charm.html (main battery pack + 12 volt replaced too)
3rd replacement for noise again: http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-tesla-model-s-drive-unit-iv-the-milling.html was their last one.
Here are some examples of multiple Model S DU replacements:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/29834-Drive-Unit-Replacement-Poll/page22?p=905868&viewfull=1#post905868
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/29834-Drive-Unit-Replacement-Poll/page25?p=928147&viewfull=1#post928147
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/27853-That-very-loud-and-painful-clunk/page18?p=678838#post678838 (more at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/27853-That-very-loud-and-painful-clunk/page19?p=679117&viewfull=1#post679117)
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/36414-Model-S-Not-Ready-For-Commercial-Use-Prime-Time-Can-I-afford-to-own-this-car
There are many others.
4EVEREV
Well-known member
The one component of an EV that has about 3 moving parts and traditionally has been the most reliable part of EVs has now become one of the high failure rates thanks to Tesla. Pretty ironic.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
I'm convinced that it's ceramic bearing causing this issue.
We either put in old fashioned steel bearings, and suffer the tiny loss of range, or they fix the ceramic bearing issue.
We either put in old fashioned steel bearings, and suffer the tiny loss of range, or they fix the ceramic bearing issue.
cwerdna
Well-known member
I'm not so convinced it is, but it could be... There's plenty of discussion, sample recordings and speculation at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34141-Drive-unit-problems-explanation-by-Elon.TonyWilliams said:
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
cwerdna said:
Sorry, I'm not buying the "$3 tie" arguement. Yes, they indeed may have had issues with a low cost tie, but that's not what's failing in the motor assembly that makes the gear set whine, and gets progressively louder and louder.
I'm confident that there are ardent Tesla folks who would froth at the mouth that my hunch is counter to Mr. Musk, except it's really not. He doesn't state what the issue is, but mentions the cheap problem, which is quickly interpreted as "the holy grail".
"And we had one particular case where there was vibration, and it was due to -- it was due to the -- a cable detaching itself and touching the drive unit assembly and causing vibration to be transmitted to the body of the car. And it was somewhat pernicious because if the cable moved a little bit and so that it didn't provide a conductive path, then you wouldn't -- the vibration would go away. If you replace the drive unit, you temporarily tuck the cable back and think the problem was solved and it was -- but then the cable would vibrate itself down and transmit the energy. So I mean that, you know, the cable thing takes us like -- it's nothing to fix it. It's like, virtually, it's like a $3 cable tied to solve it."
rayray
Well-known member
My motor whine, which is more of a whistle, is getting louder and louder ... I'm going to make 3 recordings, and post here this week .. 2 from good ones, and mine ..
But I have a couple of questions:
1) If it really is the bearing or anything mechanical within the motor, then why does it not make the whine if I put it in neutral, and coast it at any speed ? Seems to me that if the bearing is bad, it would make the noise either way ?
2) Since this is so rampant, can we maybe get a class action law suit going?
But I have a couple of questions:
1) If it really is the bearing or anything mechanical within the motor, then why does it not make the whine if I put it in neutral, and coast it at any speed ? Seems to me that if the bearing is bad, it would make the noise either way ?
2) Since this is so rampant, can we maybe get a class action law suit going?
4EVEREV
Well-known member
rayray said:
An EV does not have a mechanical neutral and what damages are you going to sue for if they are doing replacements?
rayray
Well-known member
4EVEREV said:
They are not doing replacements that the problem ... We are just being told the noise is "baseline" ...
Not sure if I understand about he mechanical neutral, either way the shaft has to turn, under load or not ... So, if the bearing is bad, it should make the noise under load or no load ... In this case no noise for me if there is no load... So, doesn't that point to the inverter more than the bearings ?
4EVEREV
Well-known member
rayray said:
Mechanical neutral means the shaft would not spin, a moving shaft can make noise because it is under load in neutral but not as much. I know of many people that have had replacements with no issue getting it done.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
The noises are from the gear set... the gear box makes noise because of the bearings (all my opinion).
The noise dimishes under no-load (neutral), as any noisy gearset tends to do.
The noise dimishes under no-load (neutral), as any noisy gearset tends to do.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Here's a good read:
http://m.machinedesign.com/mechanical-drives/how-diagnose-noisy-gearbox
Understanding gear sounds
Gearboxes and gearmotors generate operational sounds in a variety of ways: Gear mesh, bearing rotation, lubricant splash, oil pump operation, and the interaction of the gearbox within the machine structure all contribute to the overall sound generated by a gearbox during operation.
With regard to individual gear components, the tooth finish of the gearing itself contributes to the sound generated during operation. For example, helical gearing that has been hobbed only tends to be louder than a comparably sized helical gearset that has also gone through a post-hobbing tooth finishing operation. For this reason, shave or grind finishing is performed on gear teeth to minimize or eliminate the rough tooth surface finish that the hobbing operation often generates. Note: In terms of tooth finish, the gearset's rotation speed also plays a significant roll in the resulting sound. Very little difference, for example, would be noted between a hobbed-only gearset rotating at 30 rpm versus a ground-finished gearset of the same size also rotating at 30 rpm. Conversely, if the gearset's rotational speed increased, one would notice a marked increase in sound from the unfinished set compared to the finished one.
The quality level to which the gearset is manufactured also influences the sound it develops during operation; a gear's quality is often based on certain characteristics such as tooth profile, tooth lead, and tooth index."
http://m.machinedesign.com/mechanical-drives/how-diagnose-noisy-gearbox
Understanding gear sounds
Gearboxes and gearmotors generate operational sounds in a variety of ways: Gear mesh, bearing rotation, lubricant splash, oil pump operation, and the interaction of the gearbox within the machine structure all contribute to the overall sound generated by a gearbox during operation.
With regard to individual gear components, the tooth finish of the gearing itself contributes to the sound generated during operation. For example, helical gearing that has been hobbed only tends to be louder than a comparably sized helical gearset that has also gone through a post-hobbing tooth finishing operation. For this reason, shave or grind finishing is performed on gear teeth to minimize or eliminate the rough tooth surface finish that the hobbing operation often generates. Note: In terms of tooth finish, the gearset's rotation speed also plays a significant roll in the resulting sound. Very little difference, for example, would be noted between a hobbed-only gearset rotating at 30 rpm versus a ground-finished gearset of the same size also rotating at 30 rpm. Conversely, if the gearset's rotational speed increased, one would notice a marked increase in sound from the unfinished set compared to the finished one.
The quality level to which the gearset is manufactured also influences the sound it develops during operation; a gear's quality is often based on certain characteristics such as tooth profile, tooth lead, and tooth index."
4EVEREV
Well-known member
Mine is about the same in N but it is not bad yet.
Khaihon
Well-known member
Assuming the recall does not introduce newer problems, I hope Toyota/Tesla does us all a solid and permanently fixes whatever is causing the gearbox noise when they eventually get around to the recall (hopefully, a motor swap in addition to any software fix). fromport has the exact same noise that I had on my first motor (replaced at ~15k). I'm now at 28k on motor 2 and it is starting to make the same gearbox noise. Driving it hard seems to make the noise develop faster. I drove very conservatively with this second motor until about 26k. The last 2k miles have been driven much harder (more sport mode and power) when the noise started to happen. No idea if there is a correlation, just my non-scientific observation.
rayray
Well-known member
4EVEREV,
Can you have the many people that have had no issues replacing their motors give us some pointers ?
We have 2 that are being denied the warranty replacement, and the reason is "the noise is in spec" ..
We have asked for the spec, the criteria, the method, anything to tell us how they make the determination, and they have nothing.
We have escalated to Toyota regional, and Toyota national, and they have both said "tuff luck" our decision is final, and if you don't like it, you can go to arbitration ...
I would love to know how the other folks so simply did get their motors replaced with no issues ...
Thanks for any advice in advance ...
Can you have the many people that have had no issues replacing their motors give us some pointers ?
We have 2 that are being denied the warranty replacement, and the reason is "the noise is in spec" ..
We have asked for the spec, the criteria, the method, anything to tell us how they make the determination, and they have nothing.
We have escalated to Toyota regional, and Toyota national, and they have both said "tuff luck" our decision is final, and if you don't like it, you can go to arbitration ...
I would love to know how the other folks so simply did get their motors replaced with no issues ...
Thanks for any advice in advance ...
4EVEREV
Well-known member
rayray said:
There are people here on the forum that have, perhaps they can tell you how. I have spoken to at least 3 in the Bay Area but I don't know them personally. I think the dealership may play a role in your outcome as it seems some are easier to deal with. If it was bad I would do arbitration.
davewill
Well-known member
Wish I could tell you there was some magic formula. I had mine done last Sep or Oct at around 6500 miles at Toyota Carlsbad. It had been getting steadily noisier over about a 2 month span, and I finally brought it in and complained about it. It took them about 3 days to get approval for the swap, another week to get the parts in, and then a day to do the swap. So far, so good at 16,000 miles (knocks on desk...does formica over particle board count?). The only thing I can suggest is to find out what the formal process is for appealing a decision like this and get it started. It might work, and if it doesn't, at least that hurdle will be out of the way if you decide to sue.rayray said:
