ALL POSTS about Charge Timer Failure

[waidy]

With respect: I do not know the deep down cause of the timer charge failures, but I DO know how to reproduce them. I have a spreadsheet that has every single charge for 8 months. It also charts many external factors to enable it to show correlations (or lack thereof). I have talked directly with Toyota techs. (I spoke with them again last night, twice. Not the dealer, Toyota.) Toyota has confirmed some of those behaviors that I listed and you claimed were false. I have pursued many theories (some mine and some Toyota's) to see if they correlated. Some did, some did not. Toyota instrumented my car with recording devices (talking to both the Toyota and Tesla OBD connectors) and had me go through my regular routine for several weeks recording diagnostic data and using my externally observed data to correlate that with.

Additionally, I have now had a Rav4 EV rental for more than 30 days (while mine was in the shop) and I have reproduced many/most of these failure behaviors with that car as well.

So tell me. Why do you say there is no pattern? Is that based on a well documented analysis? Or is that just your opinion? I can show you patterns. Real actual patterns. Yes, I have no idea where a broken line of code is or which subroutine(s) or components are in need of repair. But I can show you behavior that will reproduce a timer failure 100%. And I can show other behaviors that will reproduce it less than 100%, but statistically more often than just chance.

So let's take this down a notch. The path forward is to find useful data and provide that to Toyota. I encourage everyone to take careful notes. Theories are great for forums, but not for notes. Record facts only and as much as you can. Use your theories to help you decide what raw data to collect. As others have noted, software is deterministic and given the same inputs will always produce the same outputs. (Yes, i know there are exceptions to that, but basically it is true.) The issue here is that there are many inputs and these need to be observed and recorded and isolated as best possible. I will be talking to Toyota again today and my message is that they need to engage the community to help them, and they need to communicate more. (Of course Toyota is huge and I am just talking to one guy. But it's a start.)

Peace!

SeaMonster, thanks for logging the failure events.

I wonder if you would, next time if you talk to the tech, ask the tech to put probes on the input/output wires of the ECU and BMS units, then create the events and capture the wave forms to help to debug the problem. They must have a logic diagram (if not logic diagram, a block diagram) to further identify the area of fault.

 

[TeCKis300]

Seamonster,

I appreciate your dedicated commitment to the charging issue and I think Toyota and the community owe you a sincere thank you for your efforts.

Since you seem the most in touch outside of Toyota on these issues, I’d like to pick your brain on the failure of a nightly L2 scheduled charge after daytime use of L1 charger.

I ran into this issue again last night. Since it seems I will have to live with this issue for the near term, do you have any recommendation as to how best avoid it? Or how to get the scheduled charge to resume after it gets into its failure condition of not performing scheduled charges any longer? Only way that I have found is to fully reset the ECU by unplugging the 12V battery. Doing a full or partial immediate charge on L2 doesn’t seem to do it.

 

[fooljoe]

I ran into this issue again last night. Since it seems I will have to live with this issue for the near term, do you have any recommendation as to how best avoid it? Or how to get the scheduled charge to resume after it gets into its failure condition of not performing scheduled charges any longer? Only way that I have found is to fully reset the ECU by unplugging the 12V battery. Doing a full or partial immediate charge on L2 doesn’t seem to do it.

Have you tried deleting the next upcoming departure time, saving, then adding it back in? I've had success with that. This works at least when you know it won't charge because the display shows '--:--' for the planned start time after you plug in.

 

[SeaMonster]

I’d like to pick your brain on the failure of a nightly L2 scheduled charge after daytime use of L1 charger.

I ran into this issue again last night. Since it seems I will have to live with this issue for the near term, do you have any recommendation as to how best avoid it? Or how to get the scheduled charge to resume after it gets into its failure condition of not performing scheduled charges any longer? Only way that I have found is to fully reset the ECU by unplugging the 12V battery. Doing a full or partial immediate charge on L2 doesn’t seem to do it.

I run into this almost weekly. Here is what I plan to try next. (Don't know if this will work.) I was going to add a second charge event for 6:30. My regular one is at 7:00. My hope is then it would miss the first and hit the second. But to be clear, I haven't tried this yet. I do know that After an L1 manual charge I will miss the L2 charge the next morning and succeed on the L2 the following morning (assuming I didn't do another L1 in between). This is why I thought of trying this workaround. If you get a chance to try it, do let us know.

I have tried all sorts of permutations of plugging in and unplugging the L2. I have tried hitting the "Charge Immediately" button and then disabling that (before plugging into the L2). I tried doing that multiple times. None of that made the L2 timed charge work after doing a manual L1 charge. I tried going in and out of extended mode. I tried using the car multiple times between the L1 and L2. I keep trying to just do one thing differently each time so if it works, I know what it was that worked.

 

[TeCKis300]

I was going to add a second charge event for 6:30. My regular one is at 7:00. My hope is then it would miss the first and hit the second. But to be clear, I haven't tried this yet. I do know that After an L1 manual charge I will miss the L2 charge the next morning and succeed on the L2 the following morning (assuming I didn't do another L1 in between).

I will try this experiment for you tonight. My daily charge only is set for 6AM. I just set another 5:30AM start in addition to the regular 6AM for tomorrow.

Though I did not do an L1 charge during the day today. My previous experience was that it would not successfully do a scheduled charge even on subsequent days.

Have you tried deleting the next upcoming departure time, saving, then adding it back in? I've had success with that. This works at least when you know it won't charge because the display shows '--:--' for the planned start time after you plug in.

I will try this tomorrow if the above fails tonight. I didn't pickup on the no start time cue, but I'll look for it tomorrow. I did notice that after setting an additional leave time for above, that it showed a scheduled start time when saving the new timer.

 

[fooljoe]

I will try this tomorrow if the above fails tonight. I didn't pickup on the no start time cue, but I'll look for it tomorrow. I did notice that after setting an additional leave time for above, that it showed a scheduled start time when saving the new timer.

Plug in with the car on, then once you turn the car off verify that it displays a start time. When I had some 120v/240v confusion issues with my 20a EVSE, a couple times it would show '--:--' for a start time then fail to charge. Generally if it does display a start time after plug-in, that time is when the charge will actually start. Unfortunately I didn't look at the screen after plugging in the night before the infamous 31st incident, so I can't say if this was the case then (of course, the one day I don't bother to look).

 

[miimura]

I had a longer than normal charge last night due to an unplanned trip to SFO yesterday. I plugged in at home with the Very Low Battery warning showing. The NAV screen showed a planned departure time of 7:00am, a scheduled completion time of 6:40am, and '--:--" start for 120V and 1:50am start for 240V.

Entunes e-mails show that charging actually started at 12:07am and completed at 4:02am. I was going to delay the departure to 8am to be sure it would start after midnight, but I decided to leave it alone and see what it would do.

 

[TeCKis300]

The car successfully charged last night, so I'm happy.

fooljoe, I never noticed the non-existence of a planned start time. The car is typically my wife's DD, but I'll be using it the next couple month regularly so I'll look for that.

 

[fooljoe]

I had a longer than normal charge last night due to an unplanned trip to SFO yesterday. I plugged in at home with the Very Low Battery warning showing. The NAV screen showed a planned departure time of 7:00am, a scheduled completion time of 6:40am, and '--:--" start for 120V and 1:50am start for 240V.

Entunes e-mails show that charging actually started at 12:07am and completed at 4:02am. I was going to delay the departure to 8am to be sure it would start after midnight, but I decided to leave it alone and see what it would do.

Did it show that 1:50 start time before or after plugging in? I've found the before plug-in estimate to be useless, but the time it shows after plugging in seems to be mostly accurate.

 

[Dsinned]

This should probably be in a separate (although related) topic, but I have two key observations with a Leviton L2 EVSE (32A), each of which I think is significantly contributing to scheduled charging issues:

1. At plug-in, the car does not initiate a brief test of the charging station to verify its voltage source. I do not know if there is some sort of handshake signal between the car and the charging station to make this determination. In my VOLT, this is exactly how the initialization process works. Other forum members here have made the same observation.

2. There are really TWO charging modes. The first, and longest in duration, is what I call the bulk charging mode. The second, which is only ~30 minutes and at a much reduced power level, is the so-called cell balancing charging mode. Unfortunately, these two modes do NOT occur back to back, or at least not while in an actual CHARGING operational mode. There is ALWAYS a noticeable significant delay between these two actual charging modes. During a schedule charge, this delay typically (and inexplicably) consumes 2 or more hours. Howevever, a scheduled charge "completion" acknowledgement via Entune email notification occurs only after the bulk charge completes.


To my way of thinking, the actual time of completion of the scheduled charge itself should be AFTER the bulk charge completes, not after the delayed charging restart for cell balancing. However, the pair of amber LEDs on the driver's side rear window do not illuminate or blink at all during balancing, thus giving the impression that the charge completed even though cell balancing may still be in-progress. It would certainly be much more useful if these LEDs continued to blink throughout the entire charging operation, during both bulk and cell balance charging modes. In balancing mode, they should blink On and Off together in synchronization to indicate the overall charging operation has entered balancing mode. After cell balancing completes, then and only then should both LEDs remain extinguished.

Unless there is some important technical reason why cell balancing must NOT immediately follow bulk charging, balancing should only take up to an additional 30 minutes, not as it is now, where actual completion actually occurs several hours later.

 

[miimura]

Plug in with the car on, then once you turn the car off verify that it displays a start time.

I had a longer than normal charge last night due to an unplanned trip to SFO yesterday. I plugged in at home with the Very Low Battery warning showing. The NAV screen showed a planned departure time of 7:00am, a scheduled completion time of 6:40am, and '--:--" start for 120V and 1:50am start for 240V.

Entunes e-mails show that charging actually started at 12:07am and completed at 4:02am. I was going to delay the departure to 8am to be sure it would start after midnight, but I decided to leave it alone and see what it would do.

Did it show that 1:50 start time before or after plugging in? I've found the before plug-in estimate to be useless, but the time it shows after plugging in seems to be mostly accurate.

I've never plugged in with the car on, so this was the estimate before plugging in. IMHO, it should remember the level 2 charging parameters for each location previously used for charging. Then it could make a reasonable estimate before it is plugged in. However, this is more of a feature request because there's nothing to indicate that it has that capability.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Unless there is some important technical reason why cell balancing must NOT immediately follow bulk charging, balancing should only take up to an additional 30 minutes, not as it is now, where actual completion actually occurs several hours later.

I've seen 6 hours on a LEAF, with up to three separate short duration charging events. The length of time would solely depend on how out of whack the cells are.

 

[miimura]

This should probably be in a separate (although related) topic, but I have two key observations with a Leviton L2 EVSE (32A), each of which I think is significantly contributing to scheduled charging issues:

1. At plug-in, the car does not initiate a brief test of the charging station to verify its voltage source. I do not know if there is some sort of handshake signal between the car and the charging station to make this determination. In my VOLT, this is exactly how the initialization process works. Other forum members here have made the same observation.

2. There are really TWO charging modes. The first, and longest in duration, is what I call the bulk charging mode. The second, which is only ~30 minutes and at a much reduced power level, is the so-called cell balancing charging mode. Unfortunately, these two modes do NOT occur back to back, or at least not while in an actual CHARGING operational mode. There is ALWAYS a noticeable significant delay between these two actual charging modes. During a schedule charge, this delay typically (and inexplicably) consumes 2 or more hours. Howevever, a scheduled charge "completion" acknowledgement via Entune email notification occurs only after the bulk charge completes.


To my way of thinking, the actual time of completion of the scheduled charge itself should be AFTER the bulk charge completes, not after the delayed charging restart for cell balancing. However, the pair of amber LEDs on the driver's side rear window do not illuminate or blink at all during balancing, thus giving the impression that the charge completed even though cell balancing may still be in-progress. It would certainly be much more useful if these LEDs continued to blink throughout the entire charging operation, during both bulk and cell balance charging modes. In balancing mode, they should blink On and Off together in synchronization to indicate the overall charging operation has entered balancing mode. After cell balancing completes, then and only then should both LEDs remain extinguished.

Unless there is some important technical reason why cell balancing must NOT immediately follow bulk charging, balancing should only take up to an additional 30 minutes, not as it is now, where actual completion actually occurs several hours later.

I agree with everything here. I set my departure time for the end of my Off-Peak electric rate. The total energy required for cell balancing is inconsequential, so I don't care if it goes into the Part-Peak time. Starting the "bulk charge" before midnight however, would be upsetting because of the noticeable additional cost. Although Entunes emails you when the bulk charge is done, it will also e-mail you that it was interrupted if you unplug during cell balancing.

 

[adjackson3]

I purchased my RAV4EV a couple of months ago. I now have 780+ miles on it. I have been struggling with this charge time issue since I installed my Leviton charging station. I have been working with one of the Toyota Tech support people. I'll give him credit for making a good effort to resolve the problems. However, it wasn't until I read these postings that I realized that I was not alone. And further, Toyota/Tesla seem to have been unable to resolve the issues.

Regarding the issues, I have experienced most of them. My departure time is set for 6am every day. I do not plug in daily. Only 2 or three times a week. Invariably the end time is 5:40, a full 20 minutes before departure time. When I compare the start/stop times displayed on the car's navigation screen with the Entune email, they never agree. I have had a couple of instances where charging never happened and a couple where it failed for no apparent reason. This unreliability is becoming frustrating.

A couple of folks have mentioned their knowledge of programming computers. I too have spent almost 40 years as a programmer. I know that sometimes finding the one or more bugs in a program can be time consuming but this problem has been reported in this forum since the car was first sold. There is plenty of information for diagnosing the problem and working towards a solution. The fact that Toyota/Tesla have not resolved the problems greatly concerns me. I have had the impression that Toyota is not really committed to this car. Perhaps they are selling it merely to satisfy the State of California mandates.

One more issue that has been mentioned is the user interface with the car. It is probably the worst example of user friendly that I have ever experienced. Navigating between screens is anything but intuitive. Turning off the radio should not require navigating to a completely different screen from turning it on. It is clear that this system was programmed by computer geeks and engineers who never talked with a real user. The learning curve on this is way too steep. And I would venture to say impossible for some users. Come on Toyota, put some effort into this car. It has such great potential.

 

[fooljoe]

IMHO, it should remember the level 2 charging parameters for each location previously used for charging. Then it could make a reasonable estimate before it is plugged in. However, this is more of a feature request because there's nothing to indicate that it has that capability.

But what if you have 2 different EVSEs at the same location? This is what I have: 21a in the garage and 40a in the driveway.

Although Entunes emails you when the bulk charge is done, it will also e-mail you that it was interrupted if you unplug during cell balancing

I don't have any way to check whether or not cell balancing is occurring, but I get the "charge interrupted" email every time I unplug, so I think that email really just means "unplugged" rather than any interruption of charging occurred. I generally unplug at least 2 hours after "bulk charging" completes, so it seems at least sometimes the balancing would be done already. Also the EVSE relays are always open already when I unplug, so there's no active charging going on.

 

[mikeEmike]

I have had the impression that Toyota is not really committed to this car. Perhaps they are selling it merely to satisfy the State of California mandates.

Not "perhaps". They "are" selling it to satisfy the CARB mandates. Toyota has about as much interest in EVs as Tesla does in gas guzzlers. Ironically, when I was reading through this thread, there was a Toyota ad on the banner on top of the page with the quote, "We treat your car like it's family. We are its parents after all." If that's true, the RAV4 EV is the red-headed stepchild of the Toyota family.

One more issue that has been mentioned is the user interface with the car. It is probably the worst example of user friendly that I have ever experienced. Navigating between screens is anything but intuitive. Turning off the radio should not require navigating to a completely different screen from turning it on. It is clear that this system was programmed by computer geeks and engineers who never talked with a real user. The learning curve on this is way too steep. And I would venture to say impossible for some users. Come on Toyota, put some effort into this car. It has such great potential.

Forget talking to real users...these two companies don't want to talk to each other, for fear of giving up some information that the other can use to their own advantage.

It's a real shame because this issue, along with the other more serious issues RAV4 EV owners are facing, is taking all the fun out of what would otherwise be a really cool EV.

 

[miimura]

Although Entunes emails you when the bulk charge is done, it will also e-mail you that it was interrupted if you unplug during cell balancing

I don't have any way to check whether or not cell balancing is occurring, but I get the "charge interrupted" email every time I unplug, so I think that email really just means "unplugged" rather than any interruption of charging occurred. I generally unplug at least 2 hours after "bulk charging" completes, so it seems at least sometimes the balancing would be done already. Also the EVSE relays are always open already when I unplug, so there's no active charging going on.

That's very different from my experience. It only e-mails me as Interrupted when the EVSE indicates it is active. On the Leviton EVB40, the yellow light is blinking. I never get an e-mail on disconnect otherwise. What EVSE are you using?

Regarding the two hours, Dsinned has documented before that there is usually a 2 hour delay before it even starts balance charging. Maybe it's slowly balancing with shunts between the bulk charge and balance charge, but it seems like a long time.

 

[fooljoe]

Hm perhaps it's just related to the type of EVSE then. I mostly use a Clipper Creek CS-60, and sometimes an EVSE-upgraded Nissan unit.

 

[yblaser]

I wouldn't call cell balancing a charging mode. I don't really think that the cell balancing has anything to do with the charging timing issue and is just confusing things. I've actually only seen it happen once when I did my one and only extended charge. I would guess that there is some threshold in cell imbalance that triggers the process, so some might see it more than others depending on how uneven their charge/discharge rates are. Regardless, I don't think the car accounts for this process in the charge timing.

This is EXACTLY the problem! It is NOT accounted for!

"Cell balancing" in my mind is the period of time that the charger is actually charging, but at a much lower rate than when in the bulk charging mode. I typically see ~650W pulled from my L2 EVSE charging station during this so-called "extra" cell balancing charging mode. There is (currently) no vehicle sourced indication of when it is happening. The amber LEDs are both off, which either means the car is plugged in and waiting for a delayed start to commence charging, or the charge has already completed. The ONLY indication is at the charging station itself, if it has a Status LED to indicate charging is currently "in-progress". What's worse is there is absolutely nothing in any Toyota's documentation that any of us have access to about this almost totally transparent event! Yet, cell balancing seemingly has a MAJOR impact on overall charging operations, its successfulness, and the vehicle owner's procedural requirements. None of us really know, because Toyota never told us!!!

Bottom line, its like all QA requirements were completely non-existent when the RAV4 EV battery management system was being certified for final production release. I'm speculating now, but even the first generation (1997 - 2003) of the RAV4EV probably did a much, much better job of battery charging operations than the current car.

Shame on you Toyota!!!

 

[fooljoe]

I have the CS-60 and the unit shows as charging when I leave in the morning a few hours after it has completed charging. This only means that the contacts are closed and it is supplying voltage to the car. The car isn't actually drawing any current that I can measure. On weekends when I do not leave so early, the charging light is off so I guess at some point it turns off.

Interesting, I've never once seen the contactor remain closed after "bulk charging" is completed. And on the CS-60 you can tell when that sucker opens/closes, with a loud thunk!

I wouldn't call cell balancing a charging mode. I don't really think that the cell balancing has anything to do with the charging timing issue and is just confusing things. I've actually only seen it happen once when I did my one and only extended charge. I would guess that there is some threshold in cell imbalance that triggers the process, so some might see it more than others depending on how uneven their charge/discharge rates are. Regardless, I don't think the car accounts for this process in the charge timing.

+1