Rav4 EV Replacement? (hydrogen car)

This apparently is the car that Toyota will use to replace the Rav4 EV as its California compliance vehicle. I for one will be very disappointed when this comes to pass.

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/06/30/2015-toyota-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-will-have-300-mile-range/

"for a price comparable to a mid-size BMW or Tesla Model S."

LOL, sorry Toyota, for that price, I wouldn't blink - Model S with super charger and swap is a no brainer. Yes, I too would be very disappointed in Toyota. Get with it Toyota, expand the relationship with Tesla already!

occ said:

"for a price comparable to a mid-size BMW or Tesla Model S."

LOL, sorry Toyota, for that price, I wouldn't blink - Model S with super charger and swap is a no brainer. Yes, I too would be very disappointed in Toyota. Get with it Toyota, expand the relationship with Tesla already!

Click to expand...

All these pleas miss the goal; for Toyota to make money selling oil burning cars.

TonyWilliams said:

occ said:

"for a price comparable to a mid-size BMW or Tesla Model S."

LOL, sorry Toyota, for that price, I wouldn't blink - Model S with super charger and swap is a no brainer. Yes, I too would be very disappointed in Toyota. Get with it Toyota, expand the relationship with Tesla already!

Click to expand...

All these pleas miss the goal; for Toyota to make money selling oil burning cars.

Click to expand...

I think I get it... EVs will be pretty popular by 2015, so a RAV4EV or its replacement would likely sell itself even without any advertising or promotion by Toyota. It would be an embarrassment to them if they sold out of their CARB-mandated number without having to offer any incentives to prove that people want ICEVs and not ZEVs. Picking a fuel cell vehicle is pure genius for them - high initial expense, little customer understanding, and an inadequate network of fueling stations. They are guaranteed to not sell their CARB-mandated minimum without serious incentives even if it is a great car.

So it looks like the 2600 Rav4 evs are the end of the line! What a shame.

I just purchased one of those RAV4 EV's. I hope if it needs parts in a few years I can still get them. I've only had the vehicle 2 1/2 weeks and I love it.

This article has a little more information:

http://www.slashgear.com/toyota-fuel-cell-car-in-2014-with-300-mile-range-and-tesla-competitive-price-01288580/

"Nonetheless, despite Toyota’s – somewhat tempered – enthusiasm, fuel-cells are not universally acclaimed. The technology uses hydrogen, stored at high pressure in tanks usually under the trunk or rear seats, that is passed through a stack of polymer electrolyte membranes coated with catalyst layers: each produces under one volt, but given sufficient density can output sufficient energy to power the car."

"The advantages to fuel-cells, advocates say, are that they only emit oxygen as a waste product, and can be fueled on hydrogen sourced from water put through an electrolysis process. However, critics point to the fact that, in actuality, most commercial hydrogen is produced from natural gas, undermining some of its eco-friendly credentials. There’s also a requirement for power to actually compress the gas – in the case of Toyota’s FCV-R concept, which the production car will be based on, to 690x normal atmospheric pressure – into the car’s tank."

"Perhaps Toyota’s biggest challenge – and one which Elon Musk has highlighted – is infrastructure: so far, although there are a few hydrogen refueling stations in the US, they’re sparse. Unlike an EV, the FCV-R cannot simply be plugged into a regular power outlet for a straightforward (if slow) top-up. Meanwhile, Tesla pushes ahead with its Supercharger network, as well as flirting with even faster battery-replacement systems."

At least you can see the interior.

I have a feeling this car will be very similar to a Range Extended EV, but with the emphasis on the EV portion instead of the on board generator. Essentially using the generator is not designed to happen every day so the plug-in only driving "Range" will be higher than say that of the Volt.

The problem is that if you read the specs of some of these FCVs, you find that they cannot accelerate onto the freeway without the fuel cell running because the battery does not have enough output. Also, I don't recall any FCV that actually has a plug. They are really designed for hydrogen to be the only energy input.

Here is the other discussion about the end of the Toyota Rav4 EV to be replaced by a hydrogen car.

Toyota is not alone. Here's more of the same:

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/07/11/honda-fiat-show-dutiful-compliance-in-ev-game/

I just saw another hydrogen story. This article on Green Car Congress reports "cost of producing hydrogen via electrolysis down significantly from last year". While that sounds good, the thing that caught my eye: producing 1kg of hydrogen with the described electrolysis plant requires 55kWh of electricity. Just to correlate that with something WE can relate to: The Hyundai ix35 (Tucson) Fuel Cell currently in demonstration testing gets 65.4mi/kg of hydrogen. That vehicle is not that different from the RAV4 EV, yet we get about 3mi/kWh while using hydrogen in the ix35 gets less than 1.2mi/kWh.

I understand that it is possible to use hydrogen for energy storage and soaking up renewable energy during low demand times, etc. However, a large part of the hydrogen cost is the capitalization of the electrolysis plant. If you don't use it all the time, the amortized capital cost must be included in a smaller amount of generated hydrogen. In addition, the figures presented used an electricity cost of only 5cents/kWh and a 70% plant utilization. I just don't see how that combination happens in reality.

http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20131021/motorists-to-foot-bill-for-californias-touted-hydrogen-highway

Currently, only nine hydrogen stations are open to the public in California, with eight of them in Southern California.

The auto industry says building more stations is critical.

“We need a practical way to get stations built,” said Jana Hartline, a Toyota spokeswoman. “The end game is not so much who is going to put up the chicken or the egg but that the chicken lays it. Customers need to be able to fuel their vehicles.”

Only about 300 hydrogen fuel cell cars now cruise California’s highways. The Honda Clarity, a sedan, and the Mercedes-Benz F-Cell wagon are leased to a few dozen Southern Californians. Many of the others are in fleets or demonstration projects.

However, Toyota proved with its massively popular hybrid Prius that California motorists are interested in alternative vehicles. In two years, the company plans to sell a hydrogen-powered sedan with a range of more than 300 miles for roughly $50,000. Hyundai, BMW, Nissan, Honda and Mercedes are also moving forward with hydrogen vehicles.

Why would Tesla support this.

Supporters of the bill included the Environmental Defense Fund, California Trucking Association, the California Farm Bureau Federation, Tesla Motors and the Silicon Valley Leadership Group. Backing from the Western States Petroleum Association — which hatched the idea for the compromise with the Air Resources Board in December — and other business groups helped win the votes of some Republican lawmakers. That led to a two-thirds majority required to approve or reauthorize fees