Range on RAV

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Aries

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
49
I'm having a little difficulty understanding the range capability of my new RAV. I haven't yet done extensive studies but was hoping maybe someone here (Tony?) has and could lay it out or direct me.

The RAV seems to display estimated range in two places - on the left with the fuel gauge, and in the right in a multi function LCD display. These two displays never agree on the estimated range. Infact they can be quite different from each other. Why is that / what am I not understanding here?

I typically pay attention to the range and battery level shown in the fuel gauge with most attention paid to the battery level versus the range. Again, no extensive testing yet, but it sure "feels" to me that I am driving and getting more range than the displayed range estimate would indicate. Doesn't this make sense / possible?

Finally, when I try an extended charge (I've only tried it once) the fuel gauge seems to stay at at full for a long period. I think I've read references to this phenomena and that this extended charge is kind of invisible.

Anyway, would appreciate any feedback or guidance here as well as any experiences as to what the actual range generally is on a full charge in both charge modes.
 
I'm not an expert (yet!) on the Rav, but my understanding is the estimated range on the right (above the climate setting) is the maximum estimated range for your current charge - while the range listed on the left is taking into account the climate setting you're currently using. That estimate will rise or fall as you change your climate setting from normal, eco low, eco high or off. I mainly keep my eye on the estimate on the right, for range estimates.

I'm only using the normal charge mode, and in this current cold weather, I charge to about 70 mile range. In the summer, I expect it to rise into the 90's. I believe the extended charge mode will take you to 112 mile range and up. Some of it depends on how you drive the vehicle. If you like sport mode, and have fun with quick starts and acceleration, you're going to lose some range. If you primarily use normal mode, go easy on acceleration and coast and lightly use the break for maximum regen, you'll extend that range significantly.

I hope this helps. Watch for replies from Tony, Dsinned and others .... as I trust their judgement, and they can let you know if I'm wrong on any of my assessments. I think what I said is correct though.
 
Aries said:
I'm having a little difficulty understanding the range capability of my new RAV. I haven't yet done extensive studies but was hoping maybe someone here (Tony?) has and could lay it out or direct me.

The RAV seems to display estimated range in two places - on the left with the fuel gauge, and in the right in a multi function LCD display. These two displays never agree on the estimated range. Infact they can be quite different from each other. Why is that / what am I not understanding here?

ANSWER: The range gauge on the left is your actual "instantaneous" estimated range. The Driving Range displayed on the right side is your (maximum) range obtainable when and if you are driving without any features in your climate control system (HVAC), i.e. heating, ventilation and air conditioning. The latter whether in Auto Normal, ECO LO or ECO HI, consumes a lot of electrical energy and therefore while in operation, reduces battery capacity that could be otherwise used to DRIVE THE CAR further in range. If you turn OFF your climate control - i.e. everything HVAC related turned OFF - the two ranges displayed on your instrument panel should be exactly equal.

I typically pay attention to the range and battery level shown in the fuel gauge with most attention paid to the battery level versus the range. Again, no extensive testing yet, but it sure "feels" to me that I am driving and getting more range than the displayed range estimate would indicate. Doesn't this make sense / possible?

ANSWER: ALL of the various range(s) displayed on your dash are indeed ESTIMATES, perhaps a bit conservative depending on a number of variables, mainly HOW you are actually driving the car (light throttle/brake actuations vs. aggressively), and WHERE you are driving (hilly vs. flatland, slower speed city streets vs. 75mph freeways), and under what environmental conditions (cold vs. warm outside temperatures, windy or not, wet or dry roadways, etc).

Finally, when I try an extended charge (I've only tried it once) the fuel gauge seems to stay at at full for a long period. I think I've read references to this phenomena and that this extended charge is kind of invisible.

ANSWER: Correct. An "extended" charge results in the car having all 41.8kWh of battery power vs. a standard charge only 80% of that total capacity (35kWh). The (LH) range gauge is supposedly calibrated (not necessarily precisely nor linearly) for a standard charge only. After an extended charge the initial 20% (or ~8.4kWH) of fully charged battery capacity is essentially invisible on the 16 segmented range gauge display. After driving ~20 to 30 miles, or slightly more or less, you should see the 16th segment disappear, and then each succeeding segment disappear at ~4 to 8 mile intervals the farther you drive. Of course, YMMV, because no two of these cars are driven exactly the same way, or in the same geographical areas, or under the same environmental conditions. All these variables play a significant role in affecting your actual "real world" driving range.

Anyway, would appreciate any feedback or guidance here as well as any experiences as to what the actual range generally is on a full charge in both charge modes.

ANSWER: The maximum range in either charging mode will vary widely. Best guess, after a standard charge (to 80% of fully useable battery capacity), the max. indicated range will probably be anywhere from ~75 miles (worse case) to 110 miles (best case), or after an extended charge, from ~95 miles (worse case) to 130 miles (best case) in the majority of cases. Theoretically, the absolute best case range under THE MOST IDEAL weather and driving conditions, could be as high 150+ miles, however NOT at all very likely in the vast majority of cases. If you ever obtain a maximum estimated range of 130+ miles, that is far more ATYPICAL in the vast majority of cases, but certainly worthy of kudos nevertheless!
 
Aries said:
The RAV seems to display estimated range in two places - on the left with the fuel gauge, and in the right in a multi function LCD display. These two displays never agree on the estimated range. Infact they can be quite different from each other. Why is that / what am I not understanding here?

The mileage on the right dash display is the range without climate control, and on the left is with climate control. If you turn off climate control, the two will be the same.

I typically pay attention to the range and battery level shown in the fuel gauge with most attention paid to the battery level versus the range. Again, no extensive testing yet, but it sure "feels" to me that I am driving and getting more range than the displayed range estimate would indicate. Doesn't this make sense / possible?

I have driven 40,000 miles with electric vehicles, and I personally don't spend any time fretting over the "Guess-O-Meter". I can't tell you how often it comes up, but a LOT !!!

I recommend learning what your car can REALLY do, and what affects range, and how to calculate range. I used to physically cover the GOM on my Nissan LEAF(s), because they were that bad. Certainly, they are significantly better on the Rav4, but unfortunately, the GOM range is always based on what happened previously. I'm worried about what will happen in the future.

Finally, when I try an extended charge (I've only tried it once) the fuel gauge seems to stay at at full for a long period. I think I've read references to this phenomena and that this extended charge is kind of invisible.

This is REALLY dumb, the way that Toyota/Tesla handled this. The is NO indication to indicate 20% of the energy of the battery. If you count, there are 16 little energy segments in the fuel gauge, and if the they added 4 more on top, that would adequately represent a full "extended" charge.

Anyway, would appreciate any feedback or guidance here as well as any experiences as to what the actual range generally is on a full charge in both charge modes.

Right off the Range Chart, I can get 3.4 miles/kWh at a steady 65mph on level terrain at 70F on a no wind, dry, sea level roadway.

Therefore:

142 miles = 3.4 miles/kWh * 41.8kWh usable with 100% "extended" charge

115 miles = 3.4 miles/kWh * 34kWh usable with 80% normal "charge"


Around town, I arrive 2.7 miles/kWh, and considerably less with heater use.

Therefore:

113 miles = 2.7 miles/kWh * 41.8kWh usable with 100% "extended" charge

92 miles = 2.7 miles/kWh * 34kWh usable with 80% normal "charge"


I would just memorize those figures and adjust accordingly.
 
To add a bit more to this discussion, RAV4 EV driving efficiency is a continuously changing variable. It all depends on your driving, "where and how", and "when" with respect to environomental conditions. Some of these dependencies we can keep fairly constant, or at least try to, but others we can't. For example, the weather cannot be controlled. And then there are bad traffic conditions which we often cannot avoid. Where, how and when we drive sometimes can be accomplished under the most favorable conditions, but certainly never 100% of the time. For example, sometimes we find ourselves in a hurry to get some place, or to an unfamilar destination, and whenever our driving is due to some sort of an emergency, all bets are off!

The range gauge is an simply an ESTIMATOR largely based on our historical driving efficiency, i.e. miles per kWh, averaged over time. But, it is also constantly being updated in real time as we are actually driving. Exactly what the algorithim is to determines the range displayed is unknown. Only some small number of Toyota/Tesla software engineers know how it is determined. However, I would venture to guess, it is probably based on some various inputs. That's why Tony refers to it as the "guess-o-meter". :lol:

The bottom line, the higher the number on the GoM after a full battery charge, the more efficiently the RAV EV is being driving overall. Conversely, the lower the number, the less efficient. To many EV owners, driving efficiency is more than a guessing game, but still a "game" more or less, and our reward for playing well are the "Bragging Rights" to owning this type of car and actively supporting energy conservation, which is a good thing. Like many other EV owners, I take great personal pride in getting the best possible range from my EV, and consuming far less energy than driving some ICE vehicle. Getting the best possible electric range is a challenge and generally makes driving (at least for me) a lot more FUN. :mrgreen:
 
RAV4 EV Rental Test.........Pleased with range would be a understatement!

Left Costa Mesa with 100% entended range charge and headed to Palm Springs. 102 miles door-2-door with a elevation peak of 2500' in Beaumont. Arrived in downtown Palm Springs with 40 remaining on the display. No heat, mostly 65 MPH to Beaumont, and 70 the remaining 30 miles, very light rain, 60-65 average temp.

The same run in my leaf has required a two-hour charge in Riverside and a additional 45 minute in Beaumont.

What a pleasure to be able to make it all the way with ease.

I do have to say that the leaf provides a nicer ride. I notice much more road noise in the RAV and the whine bewteen 45-70 is awful. It's like a bee swarming around my ear. Hopefully it's just this particular rental from South Coast Toyota with 1300 miles on it. I would definetly drive the one I intended on purchasing beforehand as 100 miles in this thing was obnoxious!
 
Thanks everyone for the discussion on this topic. It's been helpful to me. I'm happy with the range I've been getting so far on the RAV.

One more question - does the RAV use the same battery pack as the Tesla S? I know its the same "system" or technology but what I mean is it actually the same pack itself -- looking at one removed from a RAV side by side with one removed from an S, are they the same physically? Just curious.
 
Good question . . . I personally do not know the answer, but they are "probably" very similar in electrical terms. The actual design capacity of the RAV4 EV battery pack is believed to be close to 50kWh, but maximum useable capacity (based on an extended charge) is intentionally less at 41.8kWh, (or 35kWh on a standard charge). Of course, the entry level Model S has been advertised as having a "40kWh" battery, but I do not know if that is its useable capacity. From the maximum range estimate, 160 miles, in theory, the Model S must be intrinsically more efficient than the RAV4 EV SUV. The Model S is certainly a heavier car, but significantly more aerodynamic than the RAV4 EV, which may explain the reason why the Tesla Sedan has greater range.
 
Dsinned said:
I think 142 miles on an extended charge gives you the record here so far. CONGRATS! :mrgreen:

That's pretty much exactly what is does at 70F degrees at 65mph, 3.4 miles/kWh @ 41.8kWh equals 142 miles. Textbook. The surprise, coming from a LEAF, is how accurate the GOM can be. The LEAF is atrocious.

I want somebody to break 200 miles!!! My longest autonomous drive so far is about 140 miles (that's not GOM miles, but actual distance covered).

The ride sucks and the whine won't go away on another car. The Tesla Model S guys mention that noise, and that's with their motor all the way in the rear, not at your feet like the Rav4. They are exactly the same motor and gear box. My motor's Tesla serial number is 331.
 
Dsinned said:
From the maximum range estimate, 160 miles, in theory, the Model S must be intrinsically efficient than the RAV4 EV SUV. The Model S is certainly a heavier car, but significantly more aerodynamic than the RAV4 EV, which may explain the reason why the Tesla Sedan has greater range.

Hmm... I'm assuming you means "intrinsically more efficient" in the quote above.

The Rav has a Cd of 0.30 (claimed lowest among SUVs) while the Tesla Model S has a Cd of 0.24
Meanwhile, the weights are 4032 for the Rav and 4650 lbs for the Tesla

So it's not obvious from a weight standpoint why the same sized battery pack would yield the increased range for Tesla... must be dominated by Cd
 
The other significant variables to overall aerodynamic efficiency is the projected frontal area and rolling resistance. The Model S is obviously lower but also wider than the Rav4. It's probably about a wash in frontal area but the Model S has a significant advantage in Cd. The Model S likely has higher rolling resistance than the Rav4 with it's more aggressive tire fitments and higher overall weight.
 
edmc said:
The Rav has a Cd of 0.30 (claimed lowest among SUVs) while the Tesla Model S has a Cd of 0.24
Meanwhile, the weights are 4032 for the Rav and 4650 lbs for the Tesla

So it's not obvious from a weight standpoint why the same sized battery pack would yield the increased range for Tesla... must be dominated by Cd

It is a mystery given the relatively large difference in each car's weight alone. It may be the batteries are not actually the same "size". The base Model S battery is referred to as having a capacity of "40kWh". I assume that is the battery's "useable" capacity. The RAV4 EV has a useable capacity of "41.8kWh", so in terms of size, they are not exactly apples to apples. This difference in useable capacity, "1.8kWh, if indeed that is what each automaker is specifying, also defies logic when it comes to each car's maximum range. On the surface, it would seem that the RAV4 EV should have the best range, at least in slower speed, city driving situations, where aerodynamic drag is not as much of a factor.
 
The Nissan LEAF advertises a 24kWh battery, when only 21kWh is usable.

We know that the 60kW and 85kWh Tesla uses 3100mah cells, where the Rav4 and presumably 40kWh Tesla Model S will be 2200mah. The Roadster also used 2200's.

If you are trying to compare advertised range:

Car-----------------Advert---EPA-----Actual

Tesla Model S-85----300----265----230-240
Tesla Model S-60----240----208----???
Tesla Model S-40----160----????---????
Rav4 EV--------------103----103----100-140
 
TonyWilliams said:
The Nissan LEAF advertises a 24kWh battery, when only 21kWh is usable.

We know that the 60kW and 85kWh Tesla uses 3100mah cells, where the Rav4 and presumably 40kWh Tesla Model S will be 2200mah. The Roadster also used 2200's.

If you are trying to compare advertised range:

Car-----------------Advert---EPA-----Actual

Tesla Model S-85----300----265----230-240
Tesla Model S-60----240----208----???
Tesla Model S-40----160----????---????
Rav4 EV--------------103----103----100-140

Tony, does it seem illogical to you as well? By interpolating the above, the EPA will probably put the base Model S-40 down to around 10 to 15% (or 144 to 136 miles) less than advertised by Tesla. Conversely, the EPA rated the RAV4 EV's estimated range at 103, even though Toyota advertised 113 (for 41.8kWh).

I think Toyota got shafted by the EPA, and should have based its rating on the full (41.8kWh) useable capacity of the battery in the RAV4 EV! At least then, the rating would be more representative of "apples to apples" among all EV automakers.

I really would like to know, what is Tesla really advertiising? The FULL (as designed) maximum capacity ratings of its various battery pack options in the Model S, or the actual "useable" capacties, especially in the base model. That is, what exactly does "40kWh" represent in their rating?
 
Yesterday, Idrove my RAV4 EV on a round trip from San Jose to Half Moon Bay and back taking identical routes there and back for a net elevation change of zero. The total distance traveled was 98.9 miles round trip, ~49.5 miles each way. My route there and back was mostily freeway driving at 65mph on cruise control. The OAT (degrees F) going was in the low 50s during the early afternoon, and in the low 40s for the return at night around 11pm. It was so cold coming home I had to use ECO Hi and window defogging for a short period, and maximum driver seat heating the whole trip. Of course the headlights were on for the return as well.

I did an overnight extended charge (plus balancing/topping several hours afterwards) starting late Saturday night, ending around 4am, then concluding with balancing/topping charge by around 10am Sunday morning. The indicated (extended) range on my GoM just before I left home was 120 miles with a fully charged battery. This corresponds to a cummulative, average driving efficiency of about 2.9mi/kWh with around 1200 miles on the odometer.

When I arrive back home after the trip, there was 22 miles and 4 bars left on the GoM, so the maximum indicated range (120 miles) prior to the trip, after a full charge in extended mode, was seemingly very accurate.

I plugged in to recharge late last night around 11pm for a standard charge, ending early this morning with a subsequent topping charge completion around 7am. It was about 46F by that ending time of the recharge. The GoM's maximum range increased to an indicated 98 miles.

I take this same round trip periodically, every couple months, so next time I may give it a go with only a standard charge which should be doable with hopefully a couple of miles to spare, PROVIDED MY CUMMULATIVE DRIVING EFFICIENCY BY THAT TIME IS AT LEAST 2.9mi/kWh. :mrgreen:
 
I'm worried. After perhaps five charges that topped out at around 103 the next two were 120. I then needed to drive from south of Santa Cruz to Palo Alto and so put in an extended charge for some breathing room in my range. My RAV4 EV charged to 150 mile range. The balance left after my trip north and back was a few miles more than there should have been, which is okay with me. I didn't know that when extended charge is selected it STAYS in that mode and so when I charged that night the next morning's range was again 150 miles. I turned off the extended range charge mode and it's now charging sometimes 113 and sometimes 120. Please don't congratulate me as I'm worried that this is overcharging the battery and shortening its service life. Any thoughts or advice?
 
No need for concern Jocaroth.

You must be driving very efficiently . . . probably a little better than 3.5mi/kWh on average, which is very good!

As the car "learn" how you drive and under what conditions, (i.e. Climate Control on/off, headlights on/off, OAT low/high, city streets vs. highay/freeways, under or over 50mph, aggressive or gentle acc/braking), your average miles per kWh becomes essentially normalized either higher or lower as stored in the computer as a cummulative value for driving efficiency. This value is directly related to how much "range" you with see on the battery gauge. It is a prediction, however, and subject to a lot of variations as a function of how and where and when you drive the car.

You can get a readout of this value on your center console in one of the "EV" display modes. I believe it is under "Past History" which can be manually reset. However, don't do that unless want the learning process to start over again. There is another selection on that display called, "Update", which I believe you can select as often as you like without disturbing the "average" driving efficiency.

Also, the Entune app called ECO Dashboard keeps a running average of your driving efficiency as well (which btw, cannot be reset unless you delete the app from your smartphone).

Fwiw, I don't believe Toyota (Tesla's?) battery management computer in the RAV4 EV will allow an actual overcharge, however extended charges should be done less frequently than standard charges to help slow down the battery's aging process and lost capacity over the long term. The more standard charges you do, the longer the battery will retain its charge capacity over the lifetime of the car, but it will still slowly degrade over time, even if you only do standard charges. All batteries slowly degrade with time. It is inevitable.

The best thing you can do to prolong battery life, other than to do extended charges sparingly, is to stay "plugged in" as much as possible when the car is parked and it is convenient to do so. Also, it would be wise to not drive or store your car in a very hot climate. The CA Coastline and/or SF Bay Area, should be just fine for the RAV4 EV. However, driving and/or storing the car in Sacramento or Central Valley areas of CA might be cause for some concern in the Summertime.

Anyway, KUDOS for getting two consecutive extended ranges of 150 miles. That is actually quite difficult to do in the real world!
 
I've read previously that, "The best thing you can do to prolong battery life, other than to do extended charges sparingly, is to stay "plugged in" as much as possible when the car is parked and it is convenient to do so."




Question... I noticed that in the Panasonic literature for the 18650 Lithium Ion Cobalt cells that are likely close to the ones in our Rav4 EV's, Panasonic suggests to store the cells at room temperature charged to between 30% and 50%. If we are using our cars for just short trips each day is it better to leave them plugged in between trips, which would keep them at 80% (standard) charge. Or is it better to not plug in the car until the battery guage shows 50% (8 bars) or so, and then plug the car in overnight to give the car time to charge and do a charge balance?

This assumes a moderate climate. If it is very hot maybe it is best to always leave the car plugged in so that the battery Temperature Management System can run?
 
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